Josephus was pretty fast and loose with his sources anyways, wasn't he? Kind of like a badly composed wiki article. But then, no historian back then followed the rigor of modern scholars.
What is this primitive notion of SELF-SACRIFICE?
by Terry 45 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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Finkelstein
What is this primitive notion of SELF-SACRIFICE ?
Having to make a sacrificial burnt offering on a alter and not being able to eat a nicely cooked well roasted lamb
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King Solomon
Having to make a sacrificial burnt offering on a alter and not being able to eat a nicely cooked well roasted lamb
My understanding is the mostly-inedible parts (organs like kidneys, bones, fat, etc) were offered to God(s), but the priests did get a share of the best cuts of meat as payment for their altar-slaughtering services.
Think of it like a mandatory tax imposed by the State (where religion WAS part of the State control), where failure to comply meant not just personal sin, but a sin cast on the ENTIRE land and all of it's inhabitants. Given the principle of being forced to turn wrong-doers in or share in their sins, you have power inducement for everyone to play along with the mandatory sacrifice ritual....
Terry said:
Okay, I'll buy that.
When you are the last guy left there is nobody left to nay-say your version of things. He was sitting pretty sweet.
Given the tendency for tall tales to emerge, I look at the Masada account with an equally jaundiced eye as the OT (not that it matters, though: it's not like the account has any theological significance today).
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Finkelstein
My understanding is the mostly-inedible parts (organs like kidneys, bones, fat, etc) were offered to God(s), but the priests did get a share of the best cuts of meat as payment for their altar-slaughtering services.
Your probably right KS, I was just trying to make a joke.
In repentance of my expressed sin I'm going to offer up a burnt offering to god on my outdoor barbecue.
I hope god likes the odor of a thick juicy T-bone on the grill
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King Solomon
Indeed, God does luv Hisself some tasty BBQ aroma (from http://timcooley.net/2010/05/02/aroma-pleasing-to-the-lord/):
37 times in the Bible it says that God likes the smell of burning flesh.
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- Genesis 8:20-21
Then Noah built an altar to the LORD and, taking some of all the clean animals and clean birds, he sacrificed burnt offerings on it. The LORD smelled the pleasingaroma and said in his heart: “Never again will I curse the ground because of man, even though every inclination of his heart is evil from childhood. And never again will I destroy all living creatures, as I have done.
Genesis 8:20-22 (in Context) Genesis 8 (Whole Chapter)- Exodus 29:18
Then burn the entire ram on the altar. It is a burnt offering to the LORD, a pleasingaroma, an offering made to the LORD by fire.
Exodus 29:17-19 (in Context) Exodus 29 (Whole Chapter)- Exodus 29:25
Then take them from their hands and burn them on the altar along with the burnt offering for a pleasingaroma to the LORD, an offering made to the LORD by fire.
Exodus 29:24-26 (in Context) Exodus 29 (Whole Chapter)- Exodus 29:41
Sacrifice the other lamb at twilight with the same grain offering and its drink offering as in the morning—a pleasingaroma, an offering made to the LORD by fire.
Exodus 29:40-42 (in Context) Exodus 29 (Whole Chapter)- Leviticus 1:9
He is to wash the inner parts and the legs with water, and the priest is to burn all of it on the altar. It is a burnt offering, an offering made by fire, an aromapleasing to the LORD.
Leviticus 1:8-10 (in Context) Leviticus 1 (Whole Chapter)- Leviticus 1:13
He is to wash the inner parts and the legs with water, and the priest is to bring all of it and burn it on the altar. It is a burnt offering, an offering made by fire, an aromapleasing to the LORD.
Leviticus 1:12-14 (in Context) Leviticus 1 (Whole Chapter)- Leviticus 1:17
He shall tear it open by the wings, not severing it completely, and then the priest shall burn it on the wood that is on the fire on the altar. It is a burnt offering, an offering made by fire, an aromapleasing to the LORD.
Leviticus 1:16-17 (in Context) Leviticus 1 (Whole Chapter)- Leviticus 2:2
and take it to Aaron’s sons the priests. The priest shall take a handful of the fine flour and oil, together with all the incense, and burn this as a memorial portion on the altar, an offering made by fire, an aromapleasing to the LORD.
Leviticus 2:1-3 (in Context) Leviticus 2 (Whole Chapter)- Leviticus 2:9
He shall take out the memorial portion from the grain offering and burn it on the altar as an offering made by fire, an aromapleasing to the LORD.
Leviticus 2:8-10 (in Context) Leviticus 2 (Whole Chapter)- Leviticus 2:12
You may bring them to the LORD as an offering of the firstfruits, but they are not to be offered on the altar as a pleasingaroma.
Leviticus 2:11-13 (in Context) Leviticus 2 (Whole Chapter)- Leviticus 3:5
Then Aaron’s sons are to burn it on the altar on top of the burnt offering that is on the burning wood, as an offering made by fire, an aromapleasing to the LORD.
Leviticus 3:4-6 (in Context) Leviticus 3 (Whole Chapter)- Leviticus 3:16
The priest shall burn them on the altar as food, an offering made by fire, a pleasingaroma. All the fat is the LORD‘s.
Leviticus 3:15-17 (in Context) Leviticus 3 (Whole Chapter)- Leviticus 4:31
He shall remove all the fat, just as the fat is removed from the fellowship offering, and the priest shall burn it on the altar as an aromapleasing to the LORD. In this way the priest will make atonement for him, and he will be forgiven.
Leviticus 4:30-32 (in Context) Leviticus 4 (Whole Chapter)- Leviticus 6:15
The priest is to take a handful of fine flour and oil, together with all the incense on the grain offering, and burn the memorial portion on the altar as an aromapleasing to the LORD.
Leviticus 6:14-16 (in Context) Leviticus 6 (Whole Chapter)- Leviticus 6:21
Prepare it with oil on a griddle; bring it well-mixed and present the grain offering broken in pieces as an aromapleasing to the LORD.
Leviticus 6:20-22 (in Context) Leviticus 6 (Whole Chapter)- Leviticus 8:21
He washed the inner parts and the legs with water and burned the whole ram on the altar as a burnt offering, a pleasingaroma, an offering made to the LORD by fire, as the LORD commanded Moses.
Leviticus 8:20-22 (in Context) Leviticus 8 (Whole Chapter)- Leviticus 8:28
Then Moses took them from their hands and burned them on the altar on top of the burnt offering as an ordination offering, a pleasingaroma, an offering made to the LORD by fire.
Leviticus 8:27-29 (in Context) Leviticus 8 (Whole Chapter)- Leviticus 17:6
The priest is to sprinkle the blood against the altar of the LORD at the entrance to the Tent of Meeting and burn the fat as an aromapleasing to the LORD.
Leviticus 17:5-7 (in Context) Leviticus 17 (Whole Chapter)- Leviticus 23:13
together with its grain offering of two-tenths of an ephah of fine flour mixed with oil—an offering made to the LORD by fire, a pleasingaroma—and its drink offering of a quarter of a hin of wine.
Leviticus 23:12-14 (in Context) Leviticus 23 (Whole Chapter)- Leviticus 23:18
Present with this bread seven male lambs, each a year old and without defect, one young bull and two rams. They will be a burnt offering to the LORD, together with their grain offerings and drink offerings—an offering made by fire, an aromapleasing to the LORD.
Leviticus 23:17-19 (in Context) Leviticus 23 (Whole Chapter)- Numbers 15:3
and you present to the LORD offerings made by fire, from the herd or the flock, as an aromapleasing to the LORD -whether burnt offerings or sacrifices, for special vows or freewill offerings or festival offerings-
Numbers 15:2-4 (in Context) Numbers 15 (Whole Chapter)- Numbers 15:7
and a third of a hin of wine as a drink offering. Offer it as an aromapleasing to the LORD.
Numbers 15:6-8 (in Context) Numbers 15 (Whole Chapter)- Numbers 15:10
Also bring half a hin of wine as a drink offering. It will be an offering made by fire, an aromapleasing to the LORD.
Numbers 15:9-11 (in Context) Numbers 15 (Whole Chapter)- Numbers 15:13
” ‘Everyone who is native-born must do these things in this way when he brings an offering made by fire as an aromapleasing to the LORD.
Numbers 15:12-14 (in Context) Numbers 15 (Whole Chapter)- Numbers 15:14
For the generations to come, whenever an alien or anyone else living among you presents an offering made by fire as an aromapleasing to the LORD, he must do exactly as you do.
Numbers 15:13-15 (in Context) Numbers 15 (Whole Chapter)- Numbers 15:24
and if this is done unintentionally without the community being aware of it, then the whole community is to offer a young bull for a burnt offering as an aromapleasing to the LORD, along with its prescribed grain offering and drink offering, and a male goat for a sin offering.
Numbers 15:23-25 (in Context) Numbers 15 (Whole Chapter)- Numbers 18:17
“But you must not redeem the firstborn of an ox, a sheep or a goat; they are holy. Sprinkle their blood on the altar and burn their fat as an offering made by fire, an aromapleasing to the LORD.
Numbers 18:16-18 (in Context) Numbers 18 (Whole Chapter)- Numbers 28:6
This is the regular burnt offering instituted at Mount Sinai as a pleasingaroma, an offering made to the LORD by fire.
Numbers 28:5-7 (in Context) Numbers 28 (Whole Chapter)- Numbers 28:8
Prepare the second lamb at twilight, along with the same kind of grain offering and drink offering that you prepare in the morning. This is an offering made by fire, an aromapleasing to the LORD.
Numbers 28:7-9 (in Context) Numbers 28 (Whole Chapter)- Numbers 28:13
and with each lamb, a grain offering of a tenth of an ephah of fine flour mixed with oil. This is for a burnt offering, a pleasingaroma, an offering made to the LORD by fire.
Numbers 28:12-14 (in Context) Numbers 28 (Whole Chapter)- Numbers 28:24
In this way prepare the food for the offering made by fire every day for seven days as an aromapleasing to the LORD; it is to be prepared in addition to the regular burnt offering and its drink offering.
Numbers 28:23-25 (in Context) Numbers 28 (Whole Chapter)- Numbers 28:27
Present a burnt offering of two young bulls, one ram and seven male lambs a year old as an aromapleasing to the LORD.
Numbers 28:26-28 (in Context) Numbers 28 (Whole Chapter)- Numbers 29:2
As an aromapleasing to the LORD, prepare a burnt offering of one young bull, one ram and seven male lambs a year old, all without defect.
Numbers 29:1-3 (in Context) Numbers 29 (Whole Chapter)- Numbers 29:6
These are in addition to the monthly and daily burnt offerings with their grain offerings and drink offerings as specified. They are offerings made to the LORD by fire—a pleasingaroma.
Numbers 29:5-7 (in Context) Numbers 29 (Whole Chapter)- Numbers 29:8
Present as an aromapleasing to the LORD a burnt offering of one young bull, one ram and seven male lambs a year old, all without defect.
Numbers 29:7-9 (in Context) Numbers 29 (Whole Chapter)- Numbers 29:13
Present an offering made by fire as an aromapleasing to the LORD, a burnt offering of thirteen young bulls, two rams and fourteen male lambs a year old, all without defect.
Numbers 29:12-14 (in Context) Numbers 29 (Whole Chapter)- Numbers 29:36
Present an offering made by fire as an aromapleasing to the LORD, a burnt offering of one bull, one ram and seven male lambs a year old, all without defect.
Numbers 29:35-37 (in Context) Numbers 29 (Whole Chapter) - Genesis 8:20-21
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LongHairGal
Caliber:
There may be a reason why words such as obedience, submission and self-sacrifice are met with revulsion on this forum and others. After my experience in the JW religion, I can understand why these words are repugnant to many people.
Quite plainly because these people were exploited. Anybody who was obedient, submissive and self-sacrificing has to ask themselves just who exactly was benefiting from what they did. If the answer to this question is some religious organization or a group of men this would make anybody angry. I am convinced that many people in the religion thought the other guy was going to sacrifice himself. Witnesses are full of stories of how you should share your last crust of bread, ad nauseam. The implication is that somebody ELSE was more deserving than you. Sorry, I wasn't buying this.
You feel that total exclusion of these principles will lead to self-absorption. I am not sure that many people including myself absolutely rid themselves of these principles. I exercise obedience to my employer and submit to his rules and regulations every day. The funny one is self-sacrifice because it begs the question of who you are sacrificing for and how worthy they are. Is another person's life worth more than yours? If you ask ME this question my answer would be No.
As I said in my previous post, if I had a child I would be self-sacrificing for them only.
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caliber
longhairgal ... You make many valid points ... extreme or misguided application of things like...obedient, submissive and self-sacrificing
are indeed harmful. Still there is cause to ponder for such things as self-sacrifice in war .... is the pacifist view the right one then ?
The battle for human rights has struggled with this forever .....individual rights verses the benefit to the many (collective good )
"Religious self-sacrifice "seems to be the biggest bone of contention for many
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Terry
When I use the word PRIMITIVE society, by that I mean non-philisophical; i.e. no system of ETHICS.
Tribal society is tit for tat equivalency. Raw Justice.
Our court system today is based on the idea of "restoration" or healing of the victim. (Although judicial activism has introduced chaos)
When society begins shaping rules and policies it must also propound enforcement . The easiest "fairness" to argue is exact equivalence or the Law of the Talon (eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth) which Jesus certainly had no special regard for in his teachings.
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Terry
From the Jewish Encyclopedia dot com :
LAWS, NOACHIAN:
Table of Contents
The Seven Laws.
Laws which were supposed by the Rabbis to have been binding upon mankind at large even before the revelation at Sinai, and which are still binding upon non-Jews. The term Noachian indicates the universality of these ordinances, since the whole human race was supposed to be descended from the three sons of Noah, who alone survived the Flood. Although only those laws which are found in the earlier chapters of the Pentateuch, before the record of the revelation at Sinai, should, it would seem, be binding upon all mankind, yet the Rabbis discarded some and, by hermeneutic rules or in accordance with some tradition (see Judah ha-Levi, "Cuzari," iii. 73), introduced others which are not found there. Basing their views on the passage in Gen. ii. 16, they declared that the following six commandments were enjoined upon Adam: (1) not to worship idols; (2) not to blaspheme the name of God; (3) to establish courts of justice; (4) not to kill; (5) not to commit adultery; and (6) not to rob (Gen. R. xvi. 9, xxiv. 5; Cant. R. i. 16; comp. Seder 'Olam Rabbah, ed. Ratner, ch. v. and notes, Wilna, 1897; Maimonides, "Yad," Melakim, ix. 1). A seventh commandment was added after the Flood—not to eat flesh that had been cut from a living animal (Gen. ix. 4). Thus,the Talmud frequently speaks of "the seven laws of the sons of Noah," which were regarded as obligatory upon all mankind, in contradistinction to those that were binding upon Israelites only (Tosef., 'Ab. Zarah, ix. 4; Sanh. 56a et seq.).
While many additions were made to these laws by some of the tannaim—e.g., the prohibitions against eating the blood of a living animal, against the emasculation of animals, against sorcery, against pairing animals of different species, and against grafting trees of different kinds (ib. 56b)—so that in one place thirty Noachian laws are mentioned (?ul. 92a; comp. Yer. 'Ab. Zarah ii. 1), the prevalent opinion in the Talmud is that there are only seven laws which are binding upon all mankind. In another baraita (Tanna debe Menasseh) the seven Noachian prohibitions are enumerated as applying to the following: (1) idolatry, (2) adultery, (3) murder, (4) robbery, (5) eating of a limb cut from a living animal, (6) the emasculation of animals, (7) the pairing of animals of different species (Sanh. 56b)
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King Solomon
Terry said:
When society begins shaping rules and policies it must also propound enforcement . The easiest "fairness" to argue is exact equivalence or the Law of the Talon (eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth) which Jesus certainly had no special regard for in his teachings.
All the more ironic is that Jesus repeatedly said he didn't come to change the Torah, that every last word of the Torah would stand for time everlasting, etc, when his challenging the premise of "an eye for an eye" thinking is a concept that is at the very HEART of the Law, the Torah.
Who speaks with a forked tongue, again?