-Self sacrifice for the group goes out the window when a fading elder figures out it's me or them--
What is this primitive notion of SELF-SACRIFICE?
by Terry 45 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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dgp
Self-sacrifice can be heroic or selfish.
In a Mexican town there is a street to remember the Hero fo Nacozari, a man who knew that a train would explode and was willing to take the train outside of the town, which meant he would die - and die he did. Maybe he had children in town, whatever, but to me this sounds like true self-sacrifice.
Now, self-sacrifice, even of the heroic kind, can be no more than a way for you to feel superior, or, as Terry says, to get something in return. And the "something" is more valuable than what you give. Yes, you have to die from abstaining from blood, but in return you get life everlasting. This is business, not self-sacrifice.
Panhandle girl said this:
One of my earliest memories of my mother was her saying we had to suffer and sacrifice. I believe she carried this belief from the Catholic Church into her jw belief. I grew up thinking "we all have to sacrifice," so I did.
In my experience, this is absolutely true. Some people have been made believe that suffering "purifies" and also makes you one of the Blessed. In this case, again, this is business, not self-sacrifice.
I feel that asking someone to self-deny him or herself for the sake of an organization is not self-sacrifice - though that is what they would like you to believe - but simple manipulation. Your expectation of a return on the investment, or your deeply cherished conviction that you must do the right thing, are used for somebody else's gain. I think no worse example of this can be given - at least, not recently- than the Iranian children who were recruited from among the poor, so they would walk into minefields and die instead of soldiers. They received a plastic key that they could use once they made it to Paradise. And this offer came to exist after the Iranians ran out of donkeys.
In line with what WT Wizard wrote, I beg your pardon if if this is not the case among JW's, but among Catholics the idea is that Jesus died for you (self-sacrifice), and so you must self-sacrify yourself, too, if you want to be saved. I don't get it, and I never did. Why is it required of you to sacrify yourself?
I believe there is good in being altruistic and self-denying and all that, but you need to be very careful with people who will use you if you let them. Even the recipients of your self-denial need to deserve it.
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Terry
I suggest wherever the needs of the individual are subsumed for the sake of the group, the line has been crossed.
When you stand up and ask the question: "Why is the OTHER GUY'S LIFE worth more than mine....that I should lose mine to save his?".....an important philosophical question has been raised.
If my child's life is in peril I would be innately compelled to risk my own life to save that child.
But, if a mother and sole support of 5 small children is in the same position, is there a "larger" question? If that mother dies--who will take care of the surviving children?
The question is profound and vast in the many instantiations of "correct" choices.
Jesus' example is the most peculiar and illogical of all!
The scriptures make absolutely clear that God views humanity as wretched sinful flesh that He had regretted creating (Noah's day). Yet, this humanity whose sin is deserving of death is unjustly traded for the value of a perfect sinless Jesus. Is this Justice? No. But, we are supposed to overlook
Justice and regard it as inferior to Mercy based on sacrifice!
I think the bible writers should have had a conference and cleared up their value system before making these writings permanent.
The Jews regard the suicide of trapped anarchists at Masada as profound heroism, yet, decry suicide in everyday life.
Confusion abounds.
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jgnat
Take the draft. Exceptions are made if there are dependents.
That mother with five children can dial 9-1-1, and flag down a willing stranger.
Religious self-sacrifice, now that defies logic! Take the finest fruits of your labour, and sacrifice them. Other than as a symbolic act, how does it help? I've noticed amongst Catholics, Evangelicals, Mormons a type of religious glow that comes about from self-sacrifice. For my Catholic friend, it was abstaining from chocolate during lent. The Mormon, it was chocolate year-round. And for the Evangelical, it was the tithe-and-above (pressed down, flowing together, yadda).
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King Solomon
jgnat said:
Secular institutions who have taken advantage of our willingness to sacrifice:
Obvious guy would point out that the Nazis WERE as serious as a heart-attack about their Aryan dream, and would've been as willing to put the US under their control as much as Poland, UK, Russia, etc. The threat was real, and the sacrifices made by many in the name of freedom were real, and the benefits to the survivors just as real.
Religious sacrifice? Nope. Burning a lamp to God did NOTHING (aside, fed the priesthood, who, it is often overlooked, were allowed to share in the meal. People have done far less scheming to get a good piece of BBQed meat!)
Terry said:
The Jews regard the suicide of trapped anarchists at Masada as profound heroism, yet, decry suicide in everyday life. Confusion abounds.
Ah, but the former (Masada) contributes to the group's cultural identity, and is perceived as strengthing the group, dying for the cause (since they were considered to be FORCED to commit suicide, as their last act of defiance). The latter is seen as selfish, since it is dying without a greater cause, i.e. not in the name of YHWH.
Of course, both examples of suicides are deaths, ultimately pointless losses of lives.
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caliber
I have noticed that words like obedience, submission, self-sacrifice on JWN are all meant with great revulsion...
yet is there not a place or balanced view to each one of these words ?
Can not total exclusion of these principle idea's conveyed , not lead to being Self-absorbed ?
Have a lot of us maybe grown gun-shy to any would be control at all , in our life's ...much like
a rape victim can begin to hate and mistrust all men ?
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jgnat
....The threat was real, and the sacrifices made by many in the name of freedom were real...
Can't disagree with you at all there, KS. There are genuine circumstances where people are called to a cause.
I suggest that a corrupt organization can twist this native ability to their own ends. The notion of self-sacrifice, in and of itself, is not primitive.
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Terry
Terry said:
The Jews regard the suicide of trapped anarchists at Masada as profound heroism, yet, decry suicide in everyday life. Confusion abounds.
Ah, but the former (Masada) contributes to the group's cultural identity, and is perceived as strengthing the group, dying for the cause (since they were considered to be FORCED to commit suicide, as their last act of defiance). The latter is seen as selfish, since it is dying without a greater cause, i.e. not in the name of YHWH.
But, Josephus is a vital voice to the history of the Jews and he made a suicide pact which he himself did NOT honor.
His spooky memory of who said and did what to whom is almost the only testimony in the latter days of Judaism to certain persons and events
otherwise uncorroborated.
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King Solomon
But, Josephus is a vital voice to the history of the Jews and he made a suicide pact which he himself did NOT honor.
His spooky memory of who said and did what to whom is almost the only testimony in the latter days of Judaism to certain persons and events otherwise uncorroborated.
Setting aside the mythic elements of the account, their sacrifices of their lives would probably be long-forgotten and lost for all time, if not for the historian who understood that it would all be for nothing if he followed through with the pact; instead, he lived on as the story-teller.
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Terry
Setting aside the mythic elements of the account, their sacrifices of their lives would probably be long-forgotten and lost for all time, if not for the historian who understood that it would all be for nothing if he followed through with the pact; instead, he lived on as the story-teller.
Okay, I'll buy that.
When you are the last guy left there is nobody left to nay-say your version of things. He was sitting pretty sweet.