need your advice again, please (page 6)

Fernando

Dear outsmartthesystem,

I too am not a passive personality and can relate to your need to take a stand especially since challenged to do so! However it may be wise to do so on your terms and convenience instead of your wife's and the WBTS'.

It may be wise to carefully develop a strategy and patiently stick to it no matter how hard - you are at war for the freedom of your family...

As scripture says, there is wisdom in a multitude of counsellors...

If God himself is one of these counsellors so much the better...

Personally I disagree with the strategy of proving the WBTS wrong, especially in this case.

Why not rather prove them right, using their own publications?

I do agree with asking questions.

"What is the gospel in one word?"

"What is the gospel in one sentence?"

"What is the gospel in one paragraph?"

The hidden point is that the unabridged gospel message actually exists in the Watchtower library - albeit badly fragmented. It was also specifically designed by God himself to set spiritual captives free.

The gospel is the right tool for the job - and the most powerful too.

607 is the wrong tool for the job.

Your wife has never called herself an expert on 607!

But she has called herself an expert on the gospel!!!!!!!!! She does this every time she door knocks!!!!!

The gospel and the "good news" are one and the same.

Your wife calls herself a "publisher of the good news", an evangeliser. Yet she is ignorant of the good news (or evangel, or sacred secret) according to Paul. This is a serious problem and opportunity - more than half the Bible's roughly 152 references to the "good news" are by Paul!!!!!!

In this way you can also put the squeeze on the WBTS. There is nothing they SECRETLY hate and fear more than the unabridged gospel message!! The evil spirit in them knows instinctively where the gospel leads... Yet they cannot attack it (directly) for fear of exposing themselves for what they really are.

May you be granted the power and peace to be loving, patient, gentle, wise and kind...

mind blown

Don't be fooled by thinking the elders will "not" DF you unless you have a cunning way of getting around it. There will be bottom line questions they will HAVE TO ask you.

They liked me too, they tried hard in my JC to get me to answers questions that wouldn't get me DF, but the bottom line is they have to do what they have to do because I was adament not to give in on principle.

They are also witnesses of each other in their own conduct in a JC, and when it comes down to apostasy it makes them squirm. Remember apostasy to them is the worst thing a person can be......."ooooooo those horrible devil inspired apostates".......remember, they call us "opposers'......so you/we are the enemy.

Read what happened to Dale and Bette Backer when they tried: (Bottom line still comes down to those two questions they will ask you.)

http://www.jehovahswitnessbooks.com/2010/03/judicial-committee-meeting-of-dale.html

yknot

Sigh...

After reading the updates..

I can near feel your wife's frustraton, fear and anxiety.

Fall back soldier.

You are at war against the WTS. The WTS has long instilled various techniques into us Sisters to ensure rejection of any alternate male direction and you have managed to trip several of these in her mind. She is terrified , isn't feeling safe and therefor is losing trust in you rapidly.

Trust ...... you can't lead anybody if they don't trust you and she is so scared/untrusting right now she is doing what the WTS taught her to do which is create loyalty and division in the kids against you. The WTS is more than willing to watch/encourage your family to break apart and make you the villian.

Its a trap.

If you want to keep you family together and manage an exit eventually you have to be willing to play their game and the WTS is betting heavy on on you becoming indignant, giving up or self-destructing.

She will have to feel safe again before she can trust you.

Easiest route is to play the part of good dubbie ......she won't believe you at first (read it will take months of seeing you act consistantly) but it will happen.

Once you can convince her to trust you to take the lead and that you are putting the kingdom first......then you can works subtle things into yalls lives...... (might be worth 'reaching out' too.....because it offers a great 'cover')

Again the WTS is betting you wont have the resilience to play this game and they will win by your default.

jamiebowers

Do you really think she could/would win full custody? I am a good dad. I have a lot of people in my industry and my community that would have my back. You really think they might give her FULL custody? What would she have against me in order to get such a result?

These questions are exactly the reason you should get the JW Child Custody book and get to an attorney now. You'll get a good idea what your chances are of gettting at least joint custody with the ability to make educational and medical decisions for your kids.

Ynot, with all due respect, his kids are getting older by the minute. He doesn't have time to go back in, and quite frankly, it doesn't seem that he'd be able to do that anyway. The Watch Tower is a cult; it is not God. It and its congregants must obey the law of the land, and that's why he should be getting legal advice.

Black Sheep

You might find this helpful

http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/34518/1/On-The-Art-Of-Fading

yknot

With all due respect Jamie....

Unless he gets sole custody...(but even then it would be a battle because the kids are already JW-indoctrinated)

He could lose them forever to even stricter JW thinking since their mother will feel even more compelled to 'protect' them from him/world via indoctrination.

His lil 5 year old's comments show she is already quite able to 'make a stand for Jehovah' and that sort of dedication at that age (minus coaching as his wife denies) is a very strong indication that she would resist him and probably blame him.

I was a little uberite-JWchild similar (but probably more hardcore) to what he describes of his 5 year old's comments.

He can win his child's trust back far faster and easier than his wife and begin to gently teach her the critical thinking skills.

Best to let the fire die to embers instead of intensifying them when it can be avoided.......if not he will only end up in divorce court and the kids will become pawns for the rest of their childhood (if not the rest his life).

Again the WTS is betting heavy on his giving up, becoming indignant or self-destructing.

00DAD

Ultimately it's not about doctrine per se, it's about the fact that the organization is not what it claims to be and their teachings, practices, rules and regulations are damaging to the people in it.

It is no different than an abusive relationship. The WTBTS is the abuser and the R&F are the abused. It is un-healthy to remain in an abusive relationship.

The leadership are wrong about so many things and yet they NEVER admit to mistakes. They never apologize, and more importantly, they NEVER change: they never stop being abusive.

They are hypocritical liars.

00DAD

OSTS: But here's the catch. My wife doesn't want me doing any of this WITHOUT her.

I realize that there are a lot of factors in play here, but you really don't need your wife's permission to do things with your kids.

She is acting like the WTBTS in this case trying to control everything.

In a normal, healthy family, family members do things together in every conceivable permutation:

All together
Dad with 1 kid
Dad with all the kids
Mom with 1 kid
Mom with all the kids
Mom and dad alone, no kids

You get the idea.

One of the best ideas my youngest son ever came up with was what he called "Dad & Son Day." It was a day for just the two of us to hang out and do whatever he or we wanted to do. I highly recommend it!

In spite of all their rhetoric to the contrary, the fact of the matter is that the WTBTS/JW "theology" does not promote normal, healthy families.

Quandry

You know, a few years ago, you'd be so proud to say your wife was such a faithful sister that she is unfazed by any argument. Now that you want out, you can't break through her faith in the organization.

I think the advice to back off is good. Instead of getting your kids to think outside the org., all this seems to be digging them in. Your plan may backfire in a big way if your children view you as a son of the devil who wants to take their faith.

How about this? Let it all alone for awhile. You are a nervous wreck. Concentrate on something else for awhile. Have you gotten a college degree? If not, I highly recommend it-you will be so busy you'll be happy for meeting nights so you can have time to study. Your goals, in other words, need to revolve around you for a change. And, in addition to getting an education for yourself, you'll be setting a fine example for your children.

The five year old's preoccupation with meeting pretend is normal, and let me tell you, as a mother myself, don't try to come between your kids and their mother. You will lose at this point, and they'll really resent you. I was in the organization for over thirty years, and have seen the kid who, at five, eight, ten, twelve, was gung ho for the WTS, then when the teens hit, developed outside interests and the WTS was no longer on top.

Why does your wife HAVE to no longer believe? You want the choice to be free to believe as you wish, so allow her the same. Tone down the worry for the kids right now.

I have lived for sixty years and can tell you that patience is called for. Things are not dire at this point. You have time.....

jgnat

You know, your wife's firm stand on life, following her beliefs regardless of what others think, is in the long term, a good thing. When she flips, and I do believe she will, she will go all the way. No pussyfooting around.

I suspect you are both strong-minded people, which might have been your mutual attraction in the first place.

need your advice again, please

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