need your advice again, please

by outsmartthesystem 65 Replies latest jw friends

  • aposta-Z

    " What 5 year old wants to listen to kingdom melodies? "

    Expose your child to classical music. Most of the WT melodies are poor ripoffs of great clasical composers. Dvorak's 9th -New World (linked below) must contain at least 3 Kingdom songs. They borrowed from Rachmaninov and Bruckner too. Your kid should detect quality music right away.

    One of my all times fave. Still sends shivers up my spine... in a good way.

  • hoser

    It sounds like you are in a tough spot my friend. I feel for you.

    It is almost imossible to fight against an organization like this. As soon as there is a "perceived spiritual danger" the org rallies their troops to love bomb your wife and kids with positive reinforcement(aka encouragement) seen it happen many times.

    The elder arrangement is in place and trained to do this, to separate families if need be for the greater good $$$ of the organization. They would rather have your family in and you out than all of you out.

    This may sound odd but have a bible study with your family. A BIBLE study. Not wt book study or anti wt study but read the bible and only the bible together. many have seen ttatt by just reading the bible in context and discovering it's meaning.

    When finances are tight, bad decisions are often made. If you are constantly falling behind in your bills eventually it will catch up to you. You should sit down with your wife and a piece of paper and calculator and see if adjustments need to be made or even to go see a financial consultant and get some advice. You cannot go on like you are. something will give.

    I hope this helps

  • hoser

    double post

  • outsmartthesystem

    I guess I'm with yknot. Unless you're prepared for the marriage to end, back away from her. She's already proven that she has no answers and isn't prepared to really start thinking. Wasn't there already something in a KM or somewhere that the society already told the sheeple to stop sending letters and questions to the branch because they're "too busy"? And the elders are way too dumb to begin answering any of your questions. Personally, I've done very limited conversations with elders and COs, just enough so that I can tell my parents, "they are a dry well. No knowledge to be gained from them."

    Toward your wife and kids, I'd suggest that you not come across as "bad dad" that makes things stressful and wants to take away their imaginary pet tigers. Instead, look for fun activities that you can do together and create happy memories. I'd also suggest that you spend more time bonding with your fading family. They'll understand you and your situation far better than I do. They might be in a good position to help.

    Billy - I think I am starting to prepare myself for the unthinkable without even knowing it.

    I try very hard not to come across as a bad dad and I truly believe I am successful. They are too young to have heart to heart discussions with. I don't prevent them from going to meetings and I don't mention anything to them about what they are being taught. We go to the park, go swimming, play candyland, go to plays etc. There's no doubt in my mind that they'll have very happy memories. I am just so scared that the indoctrination will be too deep by the time they are old enough to be reached.

    "The first thing I think you should do is consult a very good divorce and child custody attorney who is either willing to learn about or able to handle jw issues just to have her/him at the ready in case the worst happens. Second, start exposing your kids to crirical thinking skills and the real world NOW! Third, reiterate to your wife how her social standing will be ruined if/when you're df'd and ask her to compare you being shunned with how her father was treated by her grandfather."

    I've considered that. I haven't brought myself to do it yet because mentally, I fell like once I've done that.....I've officially thrown in the towel. I've just ordered "Teach Your Children How to Think". I will reiterate how her social life will change.....but she won't care. She is a different kind of person. She has never had many friends because she wears her emotions on her sleeve and gives it to you straight up. There is no sugar coating with her. If she believes in something.....she'll go after it - detractors be damned. She doesn't care what people think. So her response to me when I tell her about the potential change in her social life will be "I don't care. If I were in your shoes and I thought MY religion was wrong.....I'd have been knocking on the door of Bethel a long time ago."

    "How long did it take YOU to learn TTATT? It was probably gradual. Appeal to her emotions and not logic. For now, let it rest for two or three weeks. Don't sound or look desperate. Always speak in a calmly manner. Maybe you should have your kids join a sports club or rec league outside of school, and if they're not into sports, then maybe music lessons. I've always wanted to take piano lessons when I was a kid."

    It took me YEARS to learn TTATT. This is something I struggle with. If my wife were to have come to me, distraught and nervous about information she found about my religion or my employer or my family or anything.....I'd be all ears. So it frustrates me so much that she is not the same. Then I have to calmly remind myself that I'm dealing with the cult personality....not her. My fear is what I wrote to Billy. What if it takes her years and years and years? What if I wait so long that my children are officially indoctrinated? They both currently take tap and ballet lessons so my wife is reasonable about that (but she certainly does not want them having "friendships" with such worldly kids

    "Doesn't it bother your wife that women within the JWs are basically regarded as second class citizens?"

    She doesn't necessarily understand it but she readily accepts it because it is "Jehovah's Will"

    "Surely she realizes that she's got more brains in her pinky toe than most of the Elders™ she knows?"

    Yes.....but it is still God's organization that he has a chain of command that must be followed. She truly believes even when an elder comes across as an incompetent boob......when he is in an elder setting (i.e. elder meeting....judicial committee etc) the holy spirit will come over him and he becomes enlightened.

    "That is an angle that will appeal to her intellect, and it could rekindle her affections for you, if you support her growth as a spiritual person by asking her to help you research things."

    She knows where I stand at this point. She knows any research I do at this point is not "innocent" but to add more and more proof against teh society. Besides......way in the past I have asked her to help me. She won't do it. She is afraid of what she will find but she won't admit it.

    "Try to do some things with her - first on non-Meeting™ nights and then gradually introduce events on Meeting™ nights - "

    That doesn't go over real well. Interestingly enough, several months ago we went jewelry shopping on a Sunday. She skipped the meeting. It was her idea....because....well....she was getting jewelry. Then 3 weeks later I suggested we go to the water park on Sunday. I was met with disgust and disdain for trying to keep her and the kids from the meeting. Go figure.

    I am trying to do more of your suggestions. We do a lot together as a family but not so much as a couple. I need to work on that.

    "I can't stress enough how important it is to slip positive non-JW activities into your life NOW. The JWs will react with shock and horror that you aren't spending every waking moment studying your Watchtowers and going Door-to-Door™, and will start gossiping about your Worldly™ activities."

    That won't happen. The congregation is low key. There are a few self righteous pricks but most are fairly balanced. Everyone around here does fun stuff with their families. Some even skip a meeting or two to do it. Believe one will gossip about our activities.

    Slow down. Armageddon™ isn't coming. There's no rush to get her out immediately.

    I know. I am just SO worried about my kids. What if the length of time "in" is so long that they become fully indoctrinated?

  • outsmartthesystem

    Again....thank you ALL of your opinions. Just reading that people care means a lot

  • outsmartthesystem

    "This may sound odd but have a bible study with your family. A BIBLE study. Not wt book study or anti wt study but read the bible and only the bible together."

    She won't do this either. The devil is so tricky that he can even make the BIBLE look like it means something else. We cannot read it without WT literature. They have God's direction to understand the bible. We don't.

  • blindnomore

    I try very hard not to come across as a bad dad and I truly believe I am successful. They are too young to have heart to heart discussions with. I don't prevent them from going to meetings and I don't mention anything to them about what they are being taught. We go to the park, go swimming, play candyland, go to plays etc. There's no doubt in my mind that they'll have very happy memories. I am just so scared that the indoctrination will be too deep by the time they are old enough to be reached.

    I wouldn't worry about your wife's welfare at this point. She is an adult. You've tried what you could. You can't change her. Only she can. I wouldn't wait for her to do her part(such as research, use common sense, ampathetic, etc) any longer in cost of your children.

    What would you do if your family is drowning? Would you just passively standing and watching in hoping some miracle to happen? I would jump right in and first save my children. Before you realize, your oldest one will talking about getting baptized.

    I am still attending all the meetings. Believe it or not one of my reasons for attending meeting is to keep my husband in line. I've been working so hard to help him learning TTATT. I truly believed he was cult free now and using critical thinking fianlly. I was wrong! Watchtower 2 Sunday ago campagning Armageddon propaganda big time. My husband's 'what if' kicked in all over again.

    I would not let my children attend Charlie Menson's session twice a week with their Menson follower mother. I will do anything to stop them from going. Take them to Park, children's place, hiking..... If Nothing works out I would go to the meeting with them to aware what's going on at the meeting. I will reason with my children and wife whether what's being said make any sense or not. It takes a lot of work and patience but what's more important to you? Your children having happy normal lives or grow up to be zambie cult members?

  • Scully

    Your fears for your children potentially becoming fully indoctrinated are justified. They're still young enough that if you provide true balance in their lives (extracurricular activities outside the JWs) that they could be reasoned with.

    One of my favorite comparisons that my eldest understood right off the bat when we decided to leave the JWs, was talking about Santa Claus as if he were "pretend". A lot of people tell their kids that Santa Claus gives children whatever they wish for at Christmas, if they are good, but if they are bad he gives them a lump of coal. Children write letters to Santa asking for their special gifts. The parents peek at the letters and pretend to mail them to Santa, and then become "Santa's Helpers" and buy the gifts the children want. Santa is pretend, but parents want their children to be happy and believe in a benevolent stranger who loves them, when really it's the parents who love them so much.

    Then we talked about Jehovah. He tells us to pray to him (make wishes) for the things we want. If we are obedient (good) apparently Jehovah will answer our prayers. If we disobey, he won't let us live in Paradise™/will destroy us at Armageddon™. He knows if you've been bad or good, and he's making a list and checking it twice. He even sends a man with an inkhorn to mark you in the forehead if you're good. He doesn't have a team of flying reindeer, but he does have a massive chariot in the sky with wheels that have eyes in them.

    Do reindeers fly?

    Do chariots fly in the sky? Do they have wheels with eyes in them?

    Are they real or pretend?

    That being said, it's still important for children to learn values of morality, justice, compassion, respect for others etc. You can foster those by volunteering with them - at a soup kitchen or food bank or helping a local family experiencing hard times. When they grow tired of toys or outgrow their clothes, teach them about sharing by giving those toys and clothes to a shelter or disaster relief center. While the WTS wants their focus to be on the WTS, help them expand their world view and your own by helping the less fortunate.

  • Finkelstein

    Would God choose a commercialized false prophet/profit as his earthly chosen organization ?

    Since when is it a moral evil to seek the truth on matters of religious doctrine.

    The bible itself clearly states to be aware of false Prophets, maybe it should have been more explicit

    and said especially those who own and operate a publishing house.

    " The Truth will set you free "

  • Finkelstein

    Religion is a game of power for men, its purely up to you if you want to be a participant in that game.

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