Disturbing new YouTube video showing Anthony Morris's approach to teenage baptism

by cedars 51 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Balaamsass
    Balaamsass

    I remember almost the same talk by our C.O. Van Ike so I huried up and got dunked as a pre-teen. Sick.

    What Billy said:

    No scriptures cited. There's no evidence that first century Christians were baptizing kids just because they were old enough to work in a field or something. Jesus made no such threats about slaughtering children because they "can't get in on their parent's coattails." By their teachings, the GB make JWs believe that even baptized JWs will get slaughtered if they don't "do enough". So getting baptized is no salvation at all. It's only about control. Once the kids are dunked, the elders can officially start butting into what the kids do, what the parents do, and threaten, and control."

    Ditto.

  • blondie
    blondie

    When I was a young child of a jw, I would hear "age of accountability" and what jws thought it was. The WTS kept it ambiguous, open to constant conjecture. At one point under the age of 10, my mother stopped associating (my father never had) and me and my siblings wondered what our status would be, not baptized and too young? Some parents thought then not knowing the exact age or even a ballpark figure, that early baptism was a protection, something the WTS ascribes to also. Is it true then that people are more likely to be sexualy moral if they are married? Doesn't rule out adultery.

    *** w68 2/1 p. 85 par. 29 Parents’ Moral Responsibility ***

    Children of Christian parents who have been properly trained will eventually offer themselves willingly in dedication to Jehovah. Before permitting the child to undergo water baptism, however, the parents should be satisfied that he knows exactly what is involved. Being baptized will not make him enjoy the preaching work, if he does not already enjoy it. Baptism will not necessarily add to his sense of responsibility. Before baptism he should have sufficient experience with study of the Bible and with telling others what he has learned to realize that these are features of his worship of the true God.

    *** w65 8/1 pp. 472-473 pars. 21-22 A Young Man Goes Astray ***

    The facts show that in many cases these have been young people, or perhaps children of dedicated parents, hence well acquainted with the hope of life in a restored paradise. Sometimes these young ones, perhaps in their early teens, have been immersed, claiming to be dedicated. Then shortly they disappear from view as far as Jehovah’s witnesses are concerned. They become wholly absorbed in worldly ways and pleasures, sometimes indulging in shameful conduct, bringing reproach on their parents. Then the parents, in great grief, raise the question as to whether their young son or daughter really understood the significance of dedication and baptism. But is that not a poor time to raise that question? Should they not have made sure about that at the time? It is so easy for young ones to take up something with great enthusiasm for a time, then take up something else with equal zest. They are just getting a taste of what life has to offer, including the attractions of this world with its dreams and vanities. (Eccl. 4:7) They are susceptible to suggestions. They see others of their age being immersed, so why not they? With their knowledge of the truth they feel they can say Yes to the two questions put to them at the time of immersion. But can it be said that at that stage they really appreciate what it means to take the step of dedication as a perpetual “vow to God” to do his will for all time, involving their whole life? The scripture says: “Better is it that you vow not than that you vow and do not pay,” pleading “it was a mistake.” “Why should the true God become indignant on account of your voice and have to wreck the work of your hands?” That is just what happened to the prodigal son.—Eccl. 5:4-6.

    22 Of course, individuals, including young ones, vary greatly. At a surprisingly early age some can take a serious view of things and hold to it. There are Bible examples of this, such as Samuel. We cannot lay down a general rule or age limit. Each one in the family must be dealt with individually. At the same time, we want to avoid a course that, in effect, tends to produce prodigal sons.

    *** w62 6/1 pp. 329-330 par. 3 Why Be Baptized? ***

    It is thought by some that baptism is a ceremony that brings certain direct spiritual dispensations from God. A careful study of the instructions given by Jesus and his disciples on baptism proves otherwise. Being a symbol of something else, it obviously is not as important as what it symbolizes, namely dedication. The step of dedication must be taken only after one has sufficient knowledge to decide unequivocally that he wishes to do Jehovah’s will and not his own; otherwise the act of baptism is meaningless. It follows, therefore, that it would be improper for infants to be baptized. One must know why he is baptized. Very young children would be lacking in understanding. It is true that Christ Jesus said: “Let the young children come to me.” But there is no record that he baptized any young children or commanded that they be baptized. Rather, they should be instructed by their parents in the “discipline and authoritative advice of Jehovah,” so as to be prepared for dedication and baptism when they have grown in understanding to the point where they can make an intelligent dedication.—Mark 10:14; Eph. 6:4.

    *** w06 7/1 pp. 29-30 pars. 15-16 Youths, Make It Your Choice to Serve Jehovah ***

    Could it be that you hesitate to take this important step for fear of being held accountable should you fall into wrong conduct? If so, think of this: Would you refuse to apply for a driver’s license simply because you were afraid that some day you might have an accident? Of course not! Neither should you hesitate to get baptized if you qualify. Indeed, you will be strongly motivated to do your utmost to resist wrongdoing if you have dedicated your life to Jehovah and have agreed to do his will. (Philippians 4:13) Young ones, please do not imagine that by postponing baptism, you avoid accountability. When you have reached the age of responsibility, you are answerable to Jehovah for the way you act whether you are baptized or not.—Romans 14:11, 12.

    16 Numerous Witnesses around the world feel that their decision to get baptized when they were young helped them greatly. Take as an example a 23-year-old Witness in Western Europe. He recalls that getting baptized at the age of 13 motivated him to be careful not to be swept away by “the desires incidental to youth.” (2 Timothy 2:22) Early on, he set his sights on serving as a full-time minister. Today, he serves happily at a branch office of Jehovah’s Witnesses. Rich blessings await all youths, including you, who choose to serve Jehovah.

    *** w87 4/15 pp. 12-13 par. 12 Gaining Peace With God Through Dedication and Baptism ***

    Should even youths consider baptism? Well, recall that Jehovah told the six armed men in the vision: “Old man, young man and virgin and little child and women you should kill off—to a ruination. But to any man upon whom there is the mark do not go near.” (Ezekiel 9:6) Of course, children too young to make a dedication would be protected by a parent’s “mark” if that parent is striving to bring the children up to love Jehovah and if they are obediently responding. (1 Corinthians 7:14) Yet, if a child is intelligent enough to make a personal decision and has reached the point where he “knows how to do what is right,” do not presume that he will continue indefinitely under the merit of his parent’s “mark.”—James 4:17.

  • Finkelstein
    Finkelstein

    The supporting answer to why the WTS. OKs baptism of young teens is they quote that scripture where it says bring up your child in

    way of the lord and in his righteous ways, a persuading tactic to get people under their control and power.

    Non-baptized JWS are not labeled as truly one of them and they have don't complete relegated control over these people,

    baptized people are of course. Baptism is recognized as being spiritually strong in support of the organization, also being expressively

    subservient and devoted to the direction of GB leaders of the organization, inadvertently appeasing god in the process.

  • Magwitch
    Magwitch

    I do not know if this is sick or just plain STUPID!

    I thank my lucky stars everyday that I flew (like a bat out of hell) with my 2 daughters when the heat started on them.

  • donuthole
    donuthole

    I wrote this about six years ago when I was still in, pardon the language.

    ---

    Is the Baptism of Children Scriptural

    Do not go beyond the things writ­ten,” — 1 Corinthi­ans 4:6

    As Chris­tians it is our solemn oblig­a­tion to hold to the Word of God as our ulti­mate author­ity and in doing so we right­fully reject the tra­di­tions of men when there is a con­flict between the two.

    As Jehovah’s Wit­nesses we have come to an under­stand­ing of the man­ner of bap­tism that is scrip­tural and rejects tra­di­tions of some denom­i­na­tions. Thus we have rejected infant bap­tism and bap­tise by full bod­ily immer­sion instead of a mere sprinkling.

    How­ever by our insis­tance on bap­tis­ing chil­dren we are going beyond both the Scrip­tures and the early exam­ple of the Chris­t­ian congregation.

    What do the Scrip­tures teach us?

    At Acts 2:37–38 we read of 3000 men being bap­tised, “Men, broth­ers, what shall we do?” Peter said to them, “Repent, and let each of you be bap­tised in the name of Jesus Christ for for­give­ness of your sins,”

    At Acts 8:12 in regards to the Samar­i­tans, “they pro­ceeded to be bap­tised, both men and women

    What does the exam­ple of Jesus teach us?

    At Luke 2:21,23 “Now when all the peo­ple were bap­tized, Jesus also was bap­tized … Futher­more, Jesus him­self, when he com­menced [his work], was about thirty years old

    What does the first-century Chris­t­ian con­gre­ga­tion teach us?

    From the April 1, 2006 Watch­tower page 27,28 “Regard­ing first-century Chris­tians, his­to­rian Augus­tus Nean­der states in his book Gen­eral His­tory of the Chris­t­ian Reli­gion and Church: “Bap­tism was admin­is­tered at first only to adults, as men were accus­tomed to con­ceive bap­tism and faith as strictly connected.”

    Why then does the Watch­tower teach us:

    “ In the case of youths, some develop a mea­sure of spir­i­tu­al­ity at a rel­a­tively ten­der age, while oth­ers take longer. Before get­ting bap­tized, how­ever a young­ster should have a per­sonal rela­tion­ship with Jeho­vah, a sound under­stand­ing of the fun­da­men­tals of the Scrip­tures, and a clear com­pre­hen­sion of what ded­i­ca­tion involves, as is the case with adults.” — Watch­tower. April 1, 2006. page 28, par 9.

    Did first-century Jew­ish chil­dren meet the Watchtower’s cri­te­ria for child baptism?

    The first con­verts to Chris­tian­ity came from the Jews. Could it be said that no jew­ish chil­dren in the first-century met the above cri­te­ria estab­lished by the Watch­tower, namely a per­sonal rela­tion­ship with Jeho­vah, a sound under­stand­ing of the Scrit­pures, and clear com­pre­hen­sion of dedication?

    We con­sider point-by-point:

    Did Jew­ish chil­dren have a rela­tion­ship with Jehovah?

    Deuteron­omy 6:5–7 answers “And you must love Jeho­vah your God will all your heart and all your heart and all your soul and all your vital force. And these words that I am com­mand­ing you today must prove to be on your heart; and you must incu­late them in your son and speak of them when you sit in your house and when you walk on the road and when you lie down and when you get up.”

    Did Jew­ish chil­dren have a sound under­stand­ing of the Scriptures?

    In answer, Alfred Eder­sheim in his book Sketches of Jew­ish Social Life says regard­ing the edu­ca­tion of Jew­ish chil­dren in the days of Christ, “home teach­ing ordi­nar­ily began when the child was about three years old. … Verses of Scrip­ture, bene­dic­tions, wise say­ings, etc., were impressed on the child, and mnemonic rules devised to facil­i­tate the reten­tion of what was so acquired. … At five years of age the Hebrew Bible was to be begun.”

    Could Jew­ish chil­dren com­pre­hend a ded­i­ca­tion to God?

    “ In 1513 B.C.E., the ancient Israelites came into a ded­i­cated rela­tion­ship with Jeho­vah. (Exo­dus 19:3–8) After that, Jews were born into that ded­i­cated nation under the Law covenant. — w03 8/15 p. 30 Do you Remember?

    We see then that Jew­ish chil­dren would have ful­filled all of the Watchtower’s cri­te­ria for child bap­tism and yet only men and women got bap­tised in the first century.

    If not on Scrip­ture on what basis then do we bap­tise children?

    Are we going beyond the things written?

  • Pistoff
    Pistoff

    From a scientific, not religious viewpoint (I heard information similar to this 5 years ago, here is a quote from an interview on NPR from 2011)

    " Sandra, welcome to the program. It's nice to have you.

    Dr. SANDRA AAMODT: It's nice to be here.

    COX: Is this idea that the brains of 18 year olds aren't fully developed a matter of settled science?

    AAMODT: Yes. The car rental companies got to it first, but neuroscientists have caught up and brain scans show clearly that the brain is not fully finished developing until about age 25.

    COX: To not be too clinical in the spin that we put on this, what parts of the brain are we talking about and what changes happen between the ages of 18 and, let's say, 25?

    AAMODT: So the changes that happen between 18 and 25 are a continuation of the process that starts around puberty, and 18 year olds are about halfway through that process. Their prefrontal cortex is not yet fully developed. That's the part of the brain that helps you to inhibit impulses and to plan and organize your behavior to reach a goal.

    And the other part of the brain that is different in adolescence is that the brain's reward system becomes highly active right around the time of puberty and then gradually goes back to an adult level, which it reaches around age 25 and that makes adolescents and young adults more interested in entering uncertain situations to seek out and try to find whether there might be a possibility of gaining something from those situations.

    COX: So this is important. Are the physiological changes in the brain, in terms of the development of young people, as significant and impactful as the cultural changes and environmental changes that they go through vis-a-vis peer pressure things of that sort?

    AAMODT: Well, actually, one of the side effects of these changes in the reward system is that adolescents and young adults become much more sensitive to peer pressure than they were earlier or will be as adults.

    So, for instance, a 20 year old is 50 percent more likely to do something risky if two friends are watching than if he's alone."

    It is a good interview, I suggest it to all.

    http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=141164708

    For me the takeway is this:

    The brain's ability to make sound decisions is NOT at it's full capacity until 25, and until that age is more susceptible to peer pressure, as in the pressure to GET BAPTIZED to fit into the social scene, to qualify as part of one's peer group.

    I have always felt that for the WT to say baptism is a child's or teenager's free will choice is absolutely false.

    The choice is not, take your time, this is a big place to go, there is no turning back.

    The information from adults, the WT and the soft spoken pedagogue Mr. Morris is: get baptized or die at Armageddon. For the average teen, the choice is, get baptized or be viewed as a slacker, an unbeliever, one who will never get a mate.

    The WT has totally subverted the meaning of baptism, making it a social contract that is forever binding on those who 'sign' the contract; increasingly, the ones 'signing up' are under age and are not mature emotionally, spiritually or physically.

    It is also a one way contract; the WT reserves the right to terminate you, but there is no way to leave the WT with any dignity or honesty whatsoever.

    Why is the WT surprised that ex-JW's are a little angry?

  • Balaamsass
    Balaamsass

    BTT- Thanks Cedars

  • The JHWH
    The JHWH

    I would need to show this to a JW - but i can't access it on youtube, and proxy servers wont let me see the videos.

    Can someone please upload this speech to another place?

  • fedup
    fedup

    Cedars

    The link to Anthony's speech is not working. Would it be available on another site?

    I'm very interested in getting a hold of it.

    Thanks

  • cedars
    cedars

    Would anybody be available to mirror the video on Vimeo and post a link so that people can watch it? I will do it myself if nobody is available, but I am up to my neck in AAWA stuff right at this minute! If anyone can come to the rescue, I would be very grateful.

    Cedars

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