Trying to talk to my mom - really discouraged, need help.

by rather be in hades 61 Replies latest jw friends

  • rather be in hades
    rather be in hades

    So, I'm new here and I've decided to finally tell my mom the truth about JWs.

    And sorry for the long post. I'm at my wits end.

    Here's some background:

    I grew p in a congregation in California, I'm not a born in, though I was raised in it from 5 - about 20. Arond 20 I pretty mch faded out, bt the emotional ups and downs were jst all too much. Like many of you, I gave up some great opportunities, lost my childhood, etc. I think if there's any place that will understand the depth of my sorrow and emotion as far as all that I've lost, it's you all because many of you lost the very same things.

    Anyway, tonight I finally started laying out the truth. Up until now, I've shied away from telling her how I really feel about the organization. I've always stopped short of telling her about 1914, 607 bce, etc.

    So the first thing I tried to do was establish common ground. I do still believe there is a god, I have no proof of course, but I do believe there is a creator of some sort, this creator put things into motion, but i diverge from religions in thinking that god is hands off. In my philosophy, we do what we do and the consequences are on us. We also agreed that god is perfect, that he wold relay his message perfectly. Even though I believe that the bible has less worth that toilet paper (you can't wipe your own ass with that flimsy paper in the NWT trust me on that), we agreed that if god were to have to relay his message and instructions to us, he would do so perfectly. As she pointed out, the bible itself has not changed (not really evidence that god had anything to do with that or if it's perfect, but whatever) and I pointed out that god didn't have to rewrite the ten commandments (ok he did, but it's not like he changed the wording the second time around a la Joseph Smith and the goldent plates) and god didn't have to rewrite the mosaic law (fine, fuck he DID toss it all out the window according to Jesus or what have you, but that's beside the point).

    So I started by asking her about organ transplants. I had her fire up the Watchtower Library CD 2011 version. From her own CD, I had her look up the 11/15/1967 Watchtower where it says in the Questions from Readers that organ transplants were cannibalistic. We know some people who are/were in need of organ transplants. I figured this would at least be a little shocking, and maybe it was. Maybe my mom is just a stone cold badass and even though this revalation could have rocked her to her core, maybe she jst didn't let on.

    But I doubt it.

    We then went on to the 3/15/1980 Watchtower where it then says that organ transplants are a CONSCIENCE matter. So I asked her, "We both believe god is infallible, that he'd give us his instructions perfectly, so why this change? How many brothers and sisters died unnecessarily? This isn't a small insignificant mistake. Lives were on the line and people who could have gotten a transplant, didn't because for 13 years, they were taught it was cannibalism to get a transplant."

    Her respnse: "They've made mistakes before, they used to smoke, celebrate Christmas, etc. The light gets brighter and they never said they were inspider by god."

    I responded that in those cases, lives were not on the line. That this is no small mistake. Even if we were to excuse the Xmas, etc...people's lives? God would let people die jusut to let the light get brighter at his appointed time? This is no different than Catholics saying that the baby who passed away was taken up by god. That we don't understand the reason, but god had a plan. It was according to his appointed time."

    I did mention though, that if the Governing Body was not inspired by god as she pointed out, and that they did make mistakes, as they've "admitted", then that begs the question, what else are they wrong about? Is it small stuff like birthdays? Sports? After school activities? Or maybe it's big stuff, like god's name? What if they were wrong and god's name isn't Jehovah at all? I do plan on following this line of reasoning tomorrow and I'll explain further.

    We then began discussing blood. I had her look up in the Watchtower cd the 9/15/1958 watchtower which states serms containing blood fractions are ok. I should have started with the 3/1/1950 watchtower that states that blood was not ok no matter how it's introduced to the body as that has significance later on. We then went from 1958 to 164 which states that innoclations containing blood fractions are a conscience matter and then to the 6/1/1990 watchtower that said serums area conscience matter and that serums containing a tiny bit of a donor's blood plasma is ok. Huge leaps in light and understanding. From the 50s, it's bad. In the 90s it's ok? So if in the 50s, someone took blood fractions and lived, they'd be facing eternal damnation of the witness kind because they took blood, but it's ok in the 90s? Even better, the 6/15/2004 watchtower says most fractions are ok. I asked her if she knew how blood fractions were made. She didn't. I explained that they take blood that's about to expire and process it in order to get the fractions. My understanding is that we cannot synthesize proteins. Protein synthesis is a biological process that we do not have control over. Someone correct me if I'm wrong. So from the 50s to now, either Witnesses are disobeying god, or they are dying unnecessarily. It's literally one or the other, but if god is a loving god, he's not showing it with these regulations. If everything becomes a conscience matter, then why even follow what the governing body says? If they're making mistakes???

    I'll probably question her on the blood again and I'll probably go back to the 1950 watchtower. I am frstrated though.

    We then moved over to 607/1914. I figured this would be the kicker. I sent her an email containing pictures of the encyclopedia entries saynig 587 is the date of destruction. I explained how we know it was 587, from the tablets. The astrological data, determined from the Assyrian tablets. We talked about 1914, how that is established and I'm not sure how that part sits with her. I kinda suspect she pt the phone down to not talk about it or to listen. I'm not sure. I hope she didn't. She didn't have much of a response that I can remember from that. I'll discuss the pictres with her tomorrow as she's supposed to look at them.

    At this point she did remark that it was amazing how much research I had done and that she realized that she needed to do more studying on her own. We laughed about that. I did pioneer for ALMOST a year lol, so I have to admit I've never done nearly as much work as I am now. In all honesty, I started pioneering because I had some friends who were and I wanted to impress some of the cute girls who were. Don't judge me, those young sisters were pretty damn hot. I miss Southern California. Gate F, Qualcomm Stadium, anyone who has been there knows what gate f stands for lol.

    I started asking her about 1925 and 1975, she apparently knows about Beth Sarim. I'm stunned. I'll be showing her newspaper clippings tomorrow about who it was deeded to, but she kinda knows about the house and considering she lives in San Diego, not all that far from Kenington Heights, she can drive past it if she likes. I'm stunned. This isn't going in any way, shape, or form like I was expecting. 1914 is a core piece of JW lore. 1914 is central dogma and it's complete bs. Everything stems from 607, which used to be 606 and it supposedly translates to 1914, but without 607...there's nothing. There's no 1914. But she kinda brshed it aside. Same for Beth Sarim, bt I'm thinking of going over some of that again, jst to make sure she was paying attention.

    We made plans to talk tomorrow, and tomorrow, I'm going to ask her about Candace Conti, Menlo Park, the toxic dumping and I'm trying to think of other stuff. Everything has to be independent. I can't get anything off of an "apostate site" because as we all know, that makes everything null and void from a JW standpoint. So I have old newspaper scans dating back to the 30s and so, talking about Beth Sarim, I'll be showing her that.

    I plan on really explaining what was going on in 1925 and 1975, that 1975 was the 6000 year passage from Adam's birth (completely erroneous considering archaeological findings dating back centuries.

    We can talk abot the proof for evolution (superbugs and antibacterial soap anyone?)

    I'm trying to gather archaeological evidence for the idea that the Israelites were not originally monotheistic, that they believed Jehovah was having booty on the side (aka a wife), and that some archaeologist think they originated from Canaan, not from some exodus from Egypt.

    I want to go over the failures in Matt 24, USGS geological data proving that earthquakes are in DECLINE not increasing and I think I can explain how statistics works in determining whether an increase is due to sensing technology or if it's genuinely god's wrath.

    I'm looking for Russell's testimony from Canada I believe? Where he lied on the stand about speaking/reading Hebrew I think it was...or Greek.

    I'm looking for the pyramids scans and how the links to how he got to 1914

    I plan on going over basically every scandal and cover up in the organization and every time my mom protests, I do plan on using 1 John 4...there's false prophets and either my chance at everlasting life is on the line, or hers is. One of us is wrong and if she loves me, shouldn't she answer my questions? Now I'm not basing my idea of her love of me on that, but I do plan on guilt tripping her into listening to me with that. I think she'll go with the guilt tripping...she's a good mom.

    I plan on sending her scans of the old watchtowers that contain overt racism. We're black, well...mixed, so I can't imagine how that's going to go over, I'll be so irritated if all she can say is, "new light". The racism completely blows away the idea of some loving Christian congregation.

    I'll go over the truth about Malawi, Mexico, passports, dictatorship

    The decline of the magazines in the time of the end

    The real estate investments in the time of the end

    Growth numbers in regards to population dynamics. In order to have growth, the rate of increase ( a power, if I remember the equation correctly) has to be above a certain value. As I understand it, the number right now isn't close to growth, outside of natural births. More information here would be helpful.

    The last thing I plan on going over is the Walsh trial. If that doesn't break it all, I don't know what will. Hearing "Brother Covington" say that there were false prophecies and that all JWs had to follow false prophecy, that it was in fact MORE IMPORTANT TO FOLLOW FALSE PROPHECY THAN TO QUESTION THE WRONGNESS OF THE DOCTRINE. I can't imagine a stronger way to end this discussion. At which point, I'd feel fine saying tha with all my research, after reading Covington's statements and all the scandals, not only is this NOT the truth, but it's a lie. We all lost out on some wonderful family experiences for some lies. My family is small. Up until this year, not including my stepfather and step sisters, it was jst me, my mom, my aunt and my two grandparents on my mom's side. Holidays in our little group revolved around me. I was the baby in the family after all and the only grandchild. After I turned 7 or 8, those family moments died when we stopped celebrating holidays. My mom and I would do JW bs, my aunt and grandfather would be in LA visiting some of his relatives and my grandmother would hangout at home or at a casino. There's years of my family not going to my baseball games, football games, etc. Years I missed out on social development, all the unnecessary pain because of this bs.

    They lied. Plain and simple. I'm so sorry for the long post, but if there are any suggestions, I would greatly appreciate it. I don't think my mom will shun me, if she were to, well I'm prepared for that, but I'm hoping that I'll have done enough to plant the seed to break her free.

    Thank you all

  • Broken Promises
    Broken Promises


    Too much, too soon. Just stick to ONE topic and ask her questions which she needs to answer.

    Deliver the information as though you're questioning things and need her assistance to help you understand why the WTS said XYZ.

    Expect her to be defensive. So be kind in how you ask your questions and in showing her the information you've come across. You can't just rip the rug from under her feet and expect her to thank you for it.

  • alanv

    Hi rather be in hades. (hope you don't mean that)

    It is actually a mistake that many of us make when we find the truth about 'the truth'. We tend to throw in everything we have learnt about the organistion to our loved ones who are still in..

    The trouble is most things will be brushed off as old light and that they now have new light. One way round that is to show doctrines that had one meaning then changed then went back to the old meaning.

    However the main way to get through to anyone is to show how God would not have chosen the Watchtower organistion in 1919 because they were no different to any nother religion at the time. And in fact their ideas at that time was even more wacky than many other religions.

    It's great that you have realized yourself about the org, but maybe take it a little slower when explaining it to others. Great to have you on board though, and you will find life will get better for you now that you are finally free of the orgs lies and double standards.

  • rather be in hades
    rather be in hades

    true, i don't expect her to thank me for it, but i'm worried about that approach, a little bit at a time. after reading some of the other experiences on here, i opted to pt everything out there at once because it seemed to me, that there was a higher degree of success, or a lower degree f complete shunning, from people who gave MORE information, not less. my ltimate goal, and my mom seems ok with this, is for us to clear the air once and for all and move on. and frankly, it seems pretty obvios she's not 100% behind everything i say, but at least she hasn't hung up the phone on me.

    all i want to do is at least plant the seed of truth and i've been framing everything as, these are questions i have, this is stuff that makes no sense to me, help me save my soul. i'm doing everything i can, even going so far as to say i don't care if she stays in or not, to get that listening ear. that's also why i'm adamant against using any "apostate sites" such as this one, twfacts, or the like.

    the seed of truth, that's all that matters to me, bt i want to put it out there and move on. with or without her, i want to move on. i need to move on, but i can't if it's all still inside me. i can't if i never tell her and at this point, pulling the rug out doesn't bother me. my goal is to be ok with me. at the end of the day, i was raised in a cult. that's fact. i was raised in a god damn cult, the very type people point at and think are weirdos. that was me. that was all of us. your screenname, broken promises, denotes disappointment. broken promises are not good things and the connotation behind those words is bad. this way of life is awful and what if? what if my mom gets into an accident and needs blood? she's going to refuse and i'll never really know my mom at all. i JUST lost my grandmother who wasn't a jw, but she NEEDED blood tranfussions. She died from lung cancer and she just couldn't get enough oxygen. Those blood transfussions with all those red blood cells would instantly transform her from practically being on her death bed unable to move and only able to watch movies all day while waiting to giving her the energy to sit up, move about, stretch her legs a bit and walk from the bedroom to the livingroom. the change was big and anyone who has had to deal with those circumstances knows what i'm talking about. without those transfussions, the last year of her life, if she even made it that long, would have been a lot more painful than necessary. i'm sure you understand, i'm pretty much preaching to the choir, but at this point, i figure, 'what the fuck have i got to lose?' up until this call, i haven't spoken to my mom since last october. not one word. up until this month, i didn't even text her. i'm tired of pussyfooting around the issue and i know this won't work for everyone, but i think it might work for me, or at least it'll make me feel better. :P

    i do appreciate the advice, especially in keeping everything as kind questions. was there any flaws to the logic i am using? are there particlar questions i should ask? be it now or later?

  • BreathoftheIndianNose

    Take it slow!!! You're lucky she's still listening to you and reasoning logically. But her learned firewall is on high alert. It only takes one piece of disclosing information, for it to shut the gates and turn of her rational powers. I walked the same line with my parents, unfortunately now I'm shunned and have reason to believe they hate me. I took it VERY slow with them, but it was like one day, I just gave them one thought that broke the camels back, and they stopped talking to me even before being DAed. I hope it goes well, and I have a feeling that the topic on racism might be the ticket for her. Just speculation but I think it should be your next topic.

    Keep us updated please! The more techniques we learn to help de-program people, and the more often we use them to see what works, the more people we can help to wake up. Hope it goes well!


  • bohm

    Woa! I am so sorry for you ordeal, but what you are trying to do now allmost certainly will not work and I strongly advice you to stop before you alienate her further.

    Your mom does not accept the watchtower as gods organization based on evidence but based on emotions, and she has been given a set of tools to deal with conflicting information (ignore, discard the source, explain away in a generic fashion) which she is now putting to use. You simply cannot change her mind by giving her more information to ignore. It is a visious cycle which is very hard to break (as it is with all high-control groups) and you need the right tools to do it.

    I would absolutely recommend you to read one of Steven Hassans books, "Combatting Cult Mind Control" or "Releasing the bonds" both for a better explanation of your Moms situation, but also for a set of tools to help her.

  • Black Sheep
    Black Sheep

    Stop jumping all over the place. Pick a subject that bothers her, and hammer it, but be careful not to alienate her.

    Be a questioner, not a preacher.

    You need her to tell you why the WT is wrong, so ask a question then shut up and make her do the talking, the research and the reasoning....

    .... and don't expect to undo decades of cult indoctrination in a few conversations. If you frighten her off, it will be a tough job getting her talking to you again. Just because she is your Mom, doesn't make her reasonable....she is a cult member.... don't forget that.

  • still thinking
    still thinking

    WOW! I enjoyed your post. It was like an exciting roller coaster ride....your enthusiasm leapt off the screen.

    Problem for you here is that it is too much information for your mum to absorb. It would take months for even a little bit of that to be processed by her.

    Use the skills you have know them well....bait & wait. Get her curiosity going. Make her do the researching herself. Ask questions like you want to know the answers...she loves you...she will look.

    Pick A topic....and stick with it. Don't stop until you are satisfied with her answer. And don't let her brush it off. Tell her it is stumbling you and you need to know....use their tricks on them. It's the language she will understand.

    You have a fantastic mind, and I am guessing she does too...give her some credit for being able to find the answers like you did. You can help by providing newspaper articles, etc if she won't look anywhere but the watchtower. But ultimately, want you want to do is plant seeds of doubt.

    Good luck with your journey...if it's anything like your post it will be exciting....

  • leavingwt

    Never discuss doctrine.

  • cantleave

    What Bohm and LeavingWT said!

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