Trying to talk to my mom - really discouraged, need help.

by rather be in hades 61 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  Lozhasleft

  I very much admire your tenacity and your independent research Rather. I do hope you manage to resolve your relationship issues with your mum as far as possible. She may not leave the WTBS but you may plant seeds that will continue to grow. That aside, as you say, your aim is to unload your anger. So much of what you write resonates with so many of us, but to be able to move on you have to come to terms with your losses and forgive yourself and your mum for being blinded by this cult that deceived so many of us, despite our intellect. You are grieving, justifiably so, but you have to go on through the process until you can accept the past. Many have found therapy not only helpful but necessary, maybe it would help you to deal with things that are obviously as you say, making you ill?

  I wonder if you have uncovered Rutherford's anti semitism yet? There is a letter online which he wrote to Hitler offering support and agreeing with his principles, quite shocking indeed! I wish you well with your ongoing attempts for resolutions.

  Loz x
• 

  nugget

  You have to face the reality that unless a witness is in the right mental place NOTHING you say will help them see the madness all that will happen is it will ring all their alarm bells and the focus will be on you and your apostacy.

  Your mother is also in a position where she would have to face the fact that she has brought her children up in a destructive cult, that is a huge thing for her to face up to. She would need a degree of humility to accept that this is what she has done. No parent would want to know that they had harmed their children.

  This is an occasion where less really is more. Telling her everything will accomplish nothing.

  When I approached the subject with my mother I just said, I think the Governing body has lost it's way. This allows for the possibility that they were once correct and that things have changed. When she asked what I was concerned about I told her I found the focus on the GB disturbing and that Jesus and Jehovah were given much less prominence. Over time we discussed many issues and she agreed with many of them although she would never break free herself.

  I understand the temptation to tell all but it is not a good idea. Witness tell new ones not to tell people everything all in one go because they know it just doesn't work Information dumps scramble the brain and cause shut down. This is a time when patience is required if you want to let her know how you feel without causing rejection.
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  blondie

  Good avice, nugget. My first experience with a ex-jw was inaccurate, an ex-jw I saw on a John Ankerberg show. I don't think this person was being deliberately untruthful, just had been given bad information. Later a non-jw asked a question for me to research that opened my mind up to how the WTS lies through omission and deceit. Later I read a statement in a current WT that was contradicted by the Proclaimers book published in the same year another tactic the WTS uses to separate related info counting on the average jw not to read much of the publications. My mind opened enough after the cruel, "unchristian" actions of the elders. Made me go hunting on the internet. Eventually, no matter how much info you read or experience, you have to make the choice, count the cost, and leave knowing the pain of staying is worse than leaving.

  patience, patience, patience...it took me ten years to wake up and find the courage to leave.
• 

  Black Sheep

  the main idea is for me to get things off my chest. for me to be able to tell her in no ncertain terms, 'this shit fucked me up.'

  that is 99% of my goal. to tell her, she raised me in a cult.

  But she won't 'get' any of that until she is ready to admit that she was in the wrong to raise you in this cult.

  You can't force her to admit that she wasted your chance of a great childhood and her opportunity to enjoy being a great parent. That's a helluva pill to swallow. Don't be impatient. I have had to come to terms with the fact that my parents have invested so much of their integrity/souls/lives into this cult, that to admit that they wasted so many decades of themselves, and their converts, and their convert's children to a bunch of New York crazies would be a helluva lot tougher than apologising to their own son for their stupidity.

  Ask her sincere questions then make her cringe for every bit of dishonesty she tries on you.

  Us ex-JW kids have enough problems getting on with our own lives without worrying about what will happen to our parents when their imaginary friend doesn't drag himself out of his privy to stop them looking like just another bunch of doomsday nutters.
• 

  rather be in hades

  if i'm honest i have a fair bit of denial going on. i've stopped going to meetings for a long time, but i never called it a cult until a couple years ago. in fact, i'd have said that the jehovah's witnesses were weird, that they were wrong, but not really any different than other christians and that's not true.

  the jehovah's witnesses are a cult. my mom is in a cult. i was raised in a cult.

  the idea we have to talk about false prophets in the 21st century as though prophets ever had any legitimacy is rather silly. or downright stupid.

  anyway:

  loz: thank you for the encouragement. while i still kick myself for these things, mentally i feel...almost free. this is the last step for me. once i let it ot to my mom, i'll feel 100% free. my life will still be the same. i'll still have to fix the direction my life was headed, but i know for sure i'm on the right track. it's like i'm lighter than air. there's a freedom and a beauty in the idea that i alone am responsible for my future. it will be as good or as bad as i make it. i do not need to pray to or for anyone for guidance, help or direction. i don't need to do this because i am a rational human being and i know that if i treat others the wawy i want to be treated while working hard, somehow i'll succeed. the grief will probabaly always be there in some form or fashion. the occassional sadness from a childhood lost will always be there, but to a smaller and smaller degree as i begin to move on. whenever i get down about it all, i almost always end up with an overwhelming sense of joy and thankfulness that i didn't die from blood loss, that i am still here with a chance and opportnity to be happy. that it's not too late to make up for lost time in a non-maniacal way :P

  i did find the letter and i think it was on jwfacts.com so thanks for the heads up. that would be an interesting point to hit on. thank you.

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  nugget: ultimately you're right, she has to be in the right mental state. maybe it's just wishful thinking, actually it's probably all wishfl thinking, but given my circumstances i think she just might be in the right frame of mind for me to be able to crack her. as i've stated, i was the one refusing to talk. i cut her ot of my life like a switch and the one time she tried to talk to me, i didn't say a word. she got the hint. there was nothing but pure anger from my side and i think that must have hurt her. i was in an awful state and she does know about one attempt. it wasn't some cry for help. i still don't know why it didn't work. i have the feeling that scared her to the point that she's just happy i'll even talk to her. she isn't a bad mother. she really isn't and i think i can tap into that part of her and needle her into listening, just from a mother-son aspect. i wonder if this is something that every one of us with close unbelieving family members can use. whether it's a mother, brother, sister, father...a relative who raised you and was close to you...maybe this is something everyone cap tap into. LOVE.

  - do you love me? i love you too. i never stopped, and i want to ask you about coming back.

  that could be a powerful opening to exploit. i feel almost dirty saying that but it is what it is right? that could be a powerful opening for some honest discssion. not jw discussion, but honest discssion. using old materials discussion. exposing false prophecies discussion. i think if you hammer in the love aspect and the i want to come back becase i love you all, bt can you help me to understand these qestions? i need help understanding before i can dedicate my life again avenue might work. i'm being naive, but it just might in certain circumstances.

  i will say though, however i end this discussion, i will find a way to ask for that bible study with her in order to leave myself the opening to go the long and patient route. i realize that i'm practically guaranteed to fail, but i feel comfortable experimenting with my mom because i'm 99% certain she won't shun me. i don't think she could. when i finally told her years ago i'm never coming back, she understood. sorta. i think i can take risks with her that most others might not be able to so maybe this will help someone else.

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  blondie: it's a shame that some ex jehovah's witnesses have resorted to lies in order to prove their point. there's enough nutty truth in the history of the watchtower org that it would satisfy all your nutty cravings. i understand there was a guy who would post outright lies on here at one point? shame. the proclaimers book seems an interesting idea to pursue. if i'm honest, i never read it so i'm going to check it out on the cd.

  i do hope it won't take years, but i'm hoping that i can jst plant the seed today so that tomorrow, and the next week and so forth, that she'll even subconsciously look at each watchtower lesson just a little bit more critically.

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  black sheep: i don't think she'll get it, bt i'll be damned if i won't find a way to at least gently show my point that this might have fucked me up. i was thinking something like...

  "i see an organization that has made false prophecies in 1874, 1914, 1925 and 1975...twice as many false prophecies as harold camping. i see an organization that dring the great depression, erroneously bought a mansion in san diego for, in today's prices, would 1.1 million dollars, though considering the san diego home market, would almost certainly be considerably more. how burdensome was that for the brothers and sisters in the congregations? was that wise of jehovah's organization? i see an organization that may have accidentally killed people frm bad teachings and misunderstandings on blood and organ transplants and a church that has been covering up sexuual miscondct. there were the two congregations not that far from you in fact. what if that was our congregation? what if that was me? i always thought brother eeeeeeeeeee seemed a little strange. you remember him? perhaps he was one. it wouldn't srprise me. but the elders never said anything. what if he was alone in the bathroom with a young child for cleaning after the meeting? what if that was me?

  i see an organization with a lot of problems and i later find out that it's leaders declared it was more important to promulgate false prophecy in unity, than to seek truth and i can't help bt think about 607 bce and 1914. that's false prophecy. i can't imagine god would willfully teach us false prophecy. so then i started worrying. maybe i lost my entire childhood and my dream school that i worked so hard for...for absolutely nothing. maybe these people were wrong all along as according to their record...they have been. i had no one to really go to to ask questions. you might disagree with me when i say this, but i coldn't really go to you, i was afraid you'd be angry. that might not have been justified, but that's how i felt. right or wrong. i couldn't go to the elders, i mean, this is grounds for disfellowshipping. i couldn't stumble any friends, not only would that be grounds for disfellowshipping, but i could be stumbling others and isn't that a major sin? i couldn't talk to my aunt or grandparents bc they might be angry with you for all of this. and for all of these people, i didn't want to stumble anyone. what if some day my aunt would have accepted it had it not been for me saying what i was thinking? i retreated into myself. i was frightened. you don't know what it's like to be afraid that you wasted your entire life and threw away so many opportunities for a religion that might ultimately be wrong. that is seemingly so far off base that it makes no sense. that is a very dark place."

  i'm stuck. don't know where to go from there. thoughts anyone?
• 

  somebody

  Greetings, rather be in hades.

  I would first ask her that if the "brothers" do not claim to be inspired and never have.. and have admitted that they make mistakes in doctrine, then why should anyone view what is published in the WTS' literature to be the teachings of God and not men? Then have her look up the following article on her CD. It's only from 2010, so it's pretty recent.

  *** w10 9/15 p. 13 par. 8 Unity Identifies True Worship ***
  The Governing Body publishes spiritually encouraging literature in many languages. This spiritual food is based on God’s Word. Thus, what is taught is not from men but from Jehovah.

  Ask her what she thinks about imperfect unispired men publishing such a thing about thier very own literature. Because if they can make such a statement, then anyone who publishes literature that it's based on the Bible can make the same statement and your Mom whould have to believe them if she is going to believe the men who make up the gb residing at WTS headquarters. If men claim that they are unispired, then they are OUTRIGHT LYING in claiming that what they teach in thier literature is not from men, but from God.

  I don't have too much time at the moment so I'll just say that I think you've been given some great advice here from posters and that I'm sorry you have to go through this. My thoughts are with you and your mom. Cults REALLY DO SUCK!

  peace to you,

  somebody/gwen
• 

  King Solomon

  the jehovah's witness answer for satan is that he was perfect but chose to go his own route. it was not jehovah's fault. on a personal level, i would arge that we are born with an innate sense of right and wrong. sorta. i mean at the very least we know it's a dick move to kill another human right? that's not just a perception/label thing. i too never really understood the existence of evil. god is spposed to be the great engineer. no great engineer builds faulty eqiupment. if god is perfect, how can he have come up with sch a complete cluster fuck of a planet? actually that's kinda funny. if you think about it, he REALLY screwed the pooch on this one. and really early into it too. i mean, if 1000 years is but a day to jehovah, then his human creation lasted all of what? seconds?minutes? hours? that's inexcusable and god needs to be fired. if the shoddy design of the firestone tires/ford combination and the relatively few deaths that resulted from that got people fired and lawsuits filed...then shouldn't we get to fire god for literally killing something like 95% of all human population up to this point?

  Yeah, that's the right idea, and exactly the point of what that product liability video was making: God wants to take credit for creating mankind and the angels, but doesn't want to accept responsibility for the defect! He admits to the defect, but it's always someone elses fault for when even his efforts to fix the defect fail, as well. Remember God did a double-flip-flop (expressed regretting making man, then regretting wiping out man): that's not behavior consistent with omniscience, and is a sign of a continuity error of human minds, not divine inspiration.

  (continuty error is when the character breaks form, acting inconsistent to known traits. It's like if Superman decided to have custom Kryptonite underwear made, claiming it provided "better support". Anyone who knows the story would howl at the writer, pointing out the error in the story-line. Same thing here: the writers of the bible broke continuity).

  BTW, another lie often repeated is saying God made mankind with "Free will", i.e. He didn't create mindless robots who must serve him or else. That's a fave JWism, but it's complete nonsense. That 2nd video discusses the Biblical idea of free will, and dismantles the claim.

  Understanding that is CRITICAL to why the story is non-sense: you cannot hold a gun to someones head, and say "love me or I'll kill you". That is NOT a free-will scenario, by any stretch of the imagination.

  You mentioned being born with an intrinsic sense of right and wrong: another example of JW brain-washing that still lives in you. That is NOT the thinking from child psychologists (eg Piaget). ALL morality is learned, taught.
• 

  King Solomon

  i want to come back becase i love you all, bt can you help me to understand these qestions? i need help understanding before i can dedicate my life again avenue might work. i'm being naive, but it just might in certain circumstances.

  I don't know if I'd be able to use my own belief system as "bait", when I KNOW I'd NEVER go back; you'd be lying to her by suggesting that is even a possibility.... That merely reinforces her own faith.

  if i'm honest i have a fair bit of denial going on. i've stopped going to meetings for a long time, but i never called it a cult until a couple years ago. in fact, i'd have said that the jehovah's witnesses were weird, that they were wrong, but not really any different than other christians and that's not true.

  the jehovah's witnesses are a cult. my mom is in a cult. i was raised in a cult.

  From a logical standpoint, you need to realize that saying "JWs are a cult" IS a conclusion, one that takes months, if not years, of evidence to build to support the claim (and the evidence IS out there).

  I am always tempted to repeat MY truth (my conclusion), and expect others to accept it on MY word, but think about it: what good would THAT do? JWs have accepted conclusions without supportive evidence for YEARS, and I'd prefer they learn to be skeptical THINKERS, and not simply accept MY or anyone else's conclusion, EVEN IF IT IS CORRECT. That blind acceptance is exactly how they ended up in a cult.

  This is an occasion where less really is more. Telling her everything will accomplish nothing.

  I think that's a doubtful assertion, where "one size doesn't fit all".

  My brother was a Bethelite, pioneer, etc and when he "awoke" he was the kind where an appeal to logic and facts worked on him; he saw the errors with the Bible, and lost ALL Xian religion in one fell swoop.

  Others (such as Ray Franz) lost their flavor of religion, but didn't become atheists (like me). Problem is, these types may then go to another flavor of the same lie, and spend many years denying facts (out of frying pan into fire). It's a bit like pulling a band-aid: do you prefer a less-intense drawn-out experience, or a sharper, but quicker process?

  My bottom line is I cannot worry about whatever results from people learning the real TRUTH: I didn't tell them the LIE in the first place, and my job is not to shelter others from themselves or become the relected target of their hatred, but to provide the knowledge needed for them to be able to make an informed decision.

  I know, I'm a bit of a maverick, placing truth above all else... Not unusual for ex-JWs to be like that, since we've spent years telling others we HAVE truths (and the irony is, sometimes there are no "one size fits all" truths).

  PS here's the difficult thing for YOU to comtemplate: you need to tease out WHY you feel the need to act. Don't say it here (it's none of OUR business), but ask yourself what drives you to want to do this. Is it your own ego speaking, or to prove to her that you are right, or to make her share in your pain? REM wrote a song about "Losing My Religion", and while it's ultimately a worthy goal (IMO), it's also a painful process to go thru.
• 

  Black Sheep

  Don't rush her.

  She does not realize the full extent of the sacrifices I made and the poor decisions I made in my life because I was raised in a cult

  Tell her your feelings on this, but then just sit back and let it fester. Don't expect an immediate result.

  The same with the failings of the Watchtower. Pick a subject that bothers her, not you, question it, then shut up except to keep it festering.

  Make it one where you don't have to show her outsourced information. Try to use information that she knows, or should know, but has to suppress & deny. Be able to direct her to her own literature on her own bookshelf or WTCD. E.g. Ask her what it says on page 216, par 9, of the Know Jehovah book, then ask her to explain what it means. Don't tell her what it says, don't tell her your thoughts. Make her do the research, the thinking, the talking, and if/when she tries to weasel her way out of the subject, the providing of the reasons for why each and every diversion, distraction, character assassination, lie, etc. is an acceptable trick to pull on her own kid.

  Do not start another subject until she knows she is deep in the crap on that one. It is much better to do total destruction of one subject, leaving every escape route firmly shut down, than to throw her the whole trash can to pick over to find a mistake you made that she can use to trash your character with.

  The doctrine that they were selected by Jesus to be God's sole channel of communication should be the primary target. As long as she believes that, she'll forgive the WT for damned near anything. It is the doctrine that makes it a cult and gives the cult it's power over her.
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  rather be in hades

  hi gwen and thank you. that quote you have is awesome. i would love to find a ton more qotes like that and hammer her on the the logic of the governing body. not so much if there is a god's organization, jst...is this god's organization? how can we know? how can we believe it is when they've had so many false prophecies?

  if i can deconstruct the legitimacy of the jehovah's witnesses governing body, then everything else would be relatively simple. it might take years, but once the infallibility of the so called spirit annointed elders falls...the coast is clear.

  it's looking to me like the two easiest topics to hammer home is the legitimacy of the governing body and the 607/1914 thing. i'm not sure which to hit with first. i'm thinking 1914/607 because that's easily proven wrong. easily.

  juust taking this piece by piece....and not necessarily in this order...

  1. go over 1914. what t means to her.

  -then talk abot how 1914 is calculated

  -the explain that it's not 607 bt 587 that 1914 then becomes irrelevant, or at least the wrong date...and i say questionable because i don't want to say outright? like it's too much? i dunno.

  2. based on that, considering they are essentially teaching a false prophecy, should we question the governing body?

  - show citings that the governing body is not perfect and not inspired

  -show spots like your quote that says they are the conduit

  -question how that is possible how one can be imporefect yet dispense perfect food. clearly 1914 has no relevance.

  from there i can launch into how this all felt to me when i was younger. that i started seeing the organization in a completely different light and that i couldn't handle it. that i was learning that the organization had made false prophecies in 1914, 1925, 1874 and 1875 and blah blah blah from above.

  i kinda like that. thank you