by rather be in hades 61 Replies latest jw friends
Read Steven hassans books.
Discussing doctrine with someone that is not ready to leave the organization will only have a negative effect in the long run. You cannot in 1, 3, 5 or 20 discussions undo years upon years of cult indoctrination. Especially by heaping loads of contrary information on her.
Hello Ratherbeinhades,
TMI for your mom all at once!!! I think everyone has given you good and sound advice.
Sometimes less is more. Hang in there!!!
I just want to say how sorry I am about your Grandmother.
Sounds like you are a Deist.
Wow Ratherbeinhades! Your energy is awsome!
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Based on my experiences .................
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I say that, while you have this 'power' in you ... go for it!
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Sometimes if we wait for the perfect moment to speak , it never comes.
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The impetus gets lost and the message sounds insipid!
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"the seed of truth, that's all that matters to me, bt i want to put it out there and move on. with or without her, i want to move on. i need to move on, but i can't if it's all still inside me. i can't if i never tell her and at this point, pulling the rug out doesn't bother me. my goal is to be ok with me. at the end of the day, i was raised in a cult. that's fact. i was raised in a god damn cult,"
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Listen to what you are saying here ... can't move on if it is still all inside me!
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That is your truth!
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In fact it feels like that is the same for me ....except that
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I didn't use that exceptional power, that came to me when discovering all the LIES.
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It would have been so easy then ... but I hesitated to use it ... and I played it safe!
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Now, it is all still inside me & I am not free.
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Now that power has passed over to them,
simply by the waving of the 'shunning card' !
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It will happen eventually, anyway!
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I regret the time I've lost ... I'll never get it back.
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In the end you must do what is right for you right now ...
that may change as years go on, but isn't that what life is about really ...
live and learn?
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My best wishes to you & Mom
clarity
What others have said. Steve Hassan's principles really help. Learn to spot when your mother is her natural self and speak to her. No use talking to the cult side of her (the light is getting brighter, tacking in to the wind), those conversations will merely go in circles.
Remember that you have gone through an awakening. I am betting a little light dawned and then everything cascaded after that. You went through a process, and it took a while.
It will be the same for your mom. This is more than imparting information. You are asking her to dismantle her entire belief system. Softly softly catchee monkey.
I completely understand your frustration as I have been talking to my own mother for over a year and we just keep going in circles. She can never answer the questions I give her and she has the same answers.."wait on Jehovah", "new light", "imperfect" men...it gets so old! As I am mixed as well I showed her an article in an old golden age magazine that was a question from readers about the origin of the black race. The answer in the magazine was that the negro race was the result of the curse that Noah pronounced upon Canaan and that there "is no servant in the world as good as a good colored servant"! My moms response.."doesn't it show humility that they don't teach that anymore?". I was shocked by her response. Unbelievable! It didn't bother her at all and she also asked why I am reading old literature..my response:"is it wrong to read the bible since its thousands of years old?". Of course she said no that nothing is wrong. The bottom line is since it is a cult, the mind control is unreal. As long as she keeps talking to you, continue asking questions. This is not something that will happen overnight..it takes time and many many prayers for God to open her eyes. Don't ever ever give up. Another good point to bring up is for whom Jesus is mediator. Most witnesses dont even realize the teaching that Jesus is not their mediator, only for the 144,000. It is printed in a questions from readers in a 1976 watchtower. Keep us posted and thanks for sharing. She is probably overwhelmed so give her some time to let it all sink in. :-)
JWs hold two opinions at the same time and toggle back and forth between them as needed:
1. The GB are just fallible men who can't be faulted for making mistakes because they're humbly learning more all the time. The light is getting brighter and brighter....
2. The GB are God's sole channel of communiation on earth today. They alone speak for Jehovah God and with his authority and therefore must be obeyed without question.
Until they see for themselves that these "truths" are contradictory, what you tell them won't compute.
As others on this thread have said, asking questions (rather than making statements) is the best approach.
And stick to one subject at a time.
Rather than attacking the WT (she'll defend it to the death), put the onus on her by telling her that you're really stumbled by some of these things and that you don't understand how the WTS can be right. If she tells you to ask the elders, tell her you no longer trust what they say, that she is going to have to show you...
Do you know of anything that bothers her about the organization or its teachings? Focus on that. It may seem trivial to you, but it's going to have a lot more effect on her than the topics you've picked out, the ones you're sure are going to make her see the light... but don't affect her at all.
Say someone asked you a question at work or in FS and that you want to give a good response. Take it easy and do one topic at a time. Only ask questions and let her soak it in. Did you print the news article about chemicals buried in Ulster? Show her where in their own literature they condemn those that contaminate the earth. Say you've kept the article to yourself since late 2011 because it shocked you. True story: I was googling (not apostate material because I was still in) for WT farms pictures online and that's how I found it. My curiosity and looking into the 'Studies in the Scriptures' series also helped me wake up. Google Books and archive.org is all I have to say.
Welcome.
I can tell you as a woman and mother, all the "facts" about the WTS in the world may not change her view. As you may know, women are more emotional than men. You are only appealing on an intellectual level, not on an emotional one.
First of all, let things rest for awhile. It is amazing after all the "enlightenment" that you've given your mom that she agrees to still speak with you. After all, Apostacy is a very serious thing, and you are awash in it according to the FDS. By all JW entrenched dogma, she should run to the elders and fear to speak to you again.
When you do talk to her next, how about starting with family things? Stay on a safe path for awhile and let things calm down. Then, instead of doctrinal stuff, try to steer the conversation to children who have died from no blood, and now they O.K. accepting fractions. Proceed to df'd children-those very young that haven't been spoken to by their parents in years. Or, how about the ones that were molested and could not warn others in the congregation for fear of being disfellowshipped.
Maybe pick one of these things and tread slowly, but please don't innundate mom....patience....patience.....is called for.
Thank you all for the responses. I greatly appreciate it.
I haven't talked to my mom the second time, but as far as I can tell, there's no hard feelings from her. My situation might be a touch unique as I am the one who initiated the "shunning". Will be talking either tonight (Ithink she has meeting tonight though) or Friday or something. I'll explain more below.
First off, I know I shouldn't blast her with everything all at once, but that is if my main goal is to get her out. Frankly, it's not.
As selfish as this may seem, my main concern is getting this off my chest and letting her know how I feel about the organization and what it has done to my life. She does not realize the full extent of the sacrifices I made and the poor decisions I made in my life because I was raised in a cult. I'm not talking about bad decisions such as a crime spree knocking off liquor stores. I'm not even talking about getting someone pregnant. I'm talking bad decisions like...not going to one of the best engineering schools in the world. That's not just a "bad decision", but a life altering one. I've beaten myself up for years about that. The effects of missing out on my dreams because of false prophecies and ludicrous teachings kills me every single day. The way I had to turn inward to protect myself from the teasing world around me, when my true nature is to be outgoing and adventurous...the lasting effects of that are incredible. I hurt in so many ways, and 99% of it can be traced back to the Watchtower Society.
There's so mch hurt and that's the tip of the iceberg and it's amazing...all of this for some lies. I wish my mom did due diligence before getting involved with this cult. I wish I did due diligence, but at the time that meant...'look at the society's publications.' I am smarter than this, but then again, maybe I am not because I got caught up in it anyway.
My main goal is to get through all of this, tell my mom the truth behind the organization and why I am so angry. I am angry becase these lies fucked me up. These lies, these not-even-half-truths, they completely changed the arc of my life and I have a right to be angry. This is no misplaced fury. I am not crazy, nor am I mentally ill and my depression is not without cause. I am only ill from stomach chrning thought I was raised in a cult that erroneously teaches that blood transfussions are bad, well...not so much anymore if you cut up the blood in small enough pieces apparently. Don't remember that in the bible but whatever. I am ill from the thought I could have needlessly died from needing blood. My mom could. That makes me ill.
I geninely want my mom out of this. I want to get to know my REAL mother, but that's not even close to my main goal. I want my mom to hear those trths and whether she leaves or she stays is inconsequential. Whether she shuns me or not is inconsequential. It frankly couldn't be worse than it already was. My relationship with my mother has been false ever since I learned I could start hiding violent video games under my dresser or in a hidden folder on the computer. My relationship was a lie when I started cussing, and it was false for all those years I never told her that I hated going out in service, reading the magazines, dreaded the thought of seeing a classmate in field service, or that I really wanted to ask whomever to the upcoming school dance.
It was a lie and I haven't anything to lose really.
Now, for the talking bit...
I have changed my strategy. After thinking about the conversation, I realized I planned everything from a rational, objective viewpoint. This is 1000000% incorrect. She is not rational about this, she is brainwashed and conditioned in a manner that allows her to believe contradictory things at the same time. As Ding pointed out, she can believe that Governing Body is fallible, while being the perfect Jehovah's sole channel of commnication on earth. That is not something you can combat in one day. So I will not attempt to do that.
I've decided that I wil remind my mother that she can count time and I will ask her to go over this stuff with me. These are things she may come up against in field service, so she has to be able to combat my logic. As she pointed out, she needs to step her own research up to get on my level. Ironic becase if she does, I can't imagine her staying in, but that's the point.
Essentially, I'll be asking for a bible study, with her and her only. My chance at everlasting life is at stake. She is my mother and given her personality, I believe she will try to rise to the challenge.
I know I muust ask questions and not make statements. At least, not many statements. I liked the WWCoG similarities. Thank you Harold Camping. I recently noticed that Barbara Anderson has a substantial amount of documents scanned into pdf. That is a godsend and opens me up to the possibilities of using the batshit crazy writings of Russell in The Finished Mystery and all that other weirdo shit.
I have also decided to shift away from doctrine for the time being. I would like to thank you all for that suggestion. It does seem wise to do so. Instead I'm thinking of going with the scandals. Remember, this is my way of explaining to my mom why I have been hurting, and that comes first and foremost. I am lookingfor court documents related to this molestation case:
I plan on going over the toxic dmping at the farm
the menlo park situation
rutherford telling the brothers to sell! -
the un link
malawi
the tacoma dome
the pedophile who was a trustee in london
I don't yet know how I will organize everything, but essentially I'm thinking of saying something to the effect of this:
"Since I have been out, I have spent a lot of time reading about religions. I found it necessary to research all of these to determine whether I had the truth or not. At the same time, I felt it necessary to research about the organization. What I found out hrut me a lot. I was raised to believe that the GB, etc was the faithful and discreet slave. I was raised to believe that this was unquestioningly Jehovah's organization. I believed it. I might not have liked it, frankly I didn't want things to end up with the paradise earth and such withot my family members. I didn't like how it was foretold most would be gone, I didn't want to forget my family who persihes in the great triblation. That said, I believed with my whole heart.I wish though, I wish before I was baptized that I had done my due diligence."
and then I'd start asking her about these different things. I really want the cort docments for the san diego situation. that blows to hell the idea that the elders are appointed by god if this gy was molesting people before and after he became an elder.
Once again, thank you all for the advice. I would appreciate any input you have, even if it's to say "Dude you're making the biggest mistake ever!!!" I appreciate it all and any alternative viewpoints would help. I really do want my mom out and while the purpose of this is to get things off my chest, I would like to try and do things in a way that maybe could get her out, if not at least sow some doubt.
