Odd, isn't it? Genesis never mentions Satan; Job mentions a serpent or Adam maybe once or not at all - and Eve gets 4 refs in whole Bible

by kepler 30 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia
    Gen 49 is nothing more than a mapping of the 12 tribes to their respective zodiac signs. If you attempt this exercise yourself you will see that more than half are easily spotted. Judah = lion = leo, i will leave the remainder as an exercise.

    Okay that sounds like fun. You're on!

    "Zebulun will live by the seashore and become a haven for ships; his border will extend toward Sidon"

    That's the well-known Harbour Constellation in the zodiac. I knew someone who was a Harbour....he thought he was a Taurus, but nope he's a Harbour!

    "Issachar is a rawboned donkey lying down among the sheep pens."

    Ahhh, that famous Donkey Constellation. That's my favorite! I just wish that I wasn't born the wrong month; everyone knows the Donkey is the bestest sign, way better than Capricorn or Virgo.

    "Dan will provide justice for his people as one of the tribes of Israel. Dan will be a snake by the roadside, a viper along the path, that bites the horse’s heels so that its rider tumbles backward."

    Oh yeah, the Serpent Constellation. Hmmm, funny, Serpens is not on the zodiac (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serpens). That's weird.

    "Naphtali is a doe set free that bears beautiful fawns".

    Ah yes, the Deer Constellation. I hear that Bruce Willis' sign is a Deer. But I checked the horoscope, and I had trouble finding the month that has the Deer as its sign. Can you help?

    "Joseph is a fruitful vine, a fruitful vine near a spring, whose branches climb over a wall."

    This Vine Constellation is tricky too. I keep asking people where it is in the horoscope, but I just get laughed at. Not sure why.

    "Benjamin is a ravenous wolf; in the morning he devours the prey, in the evening he divides the plunder".

    The Wolf Constellation....Wikipedia tells me that indeed Lupus is a constellation in the southern sky (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lupus_%28constellation%29), but I'm disturbed that it doesn't show it as lying on the zodiac. What's up with that?

  • cantleave
    cantleave

    I find it amazing that Harry Potter never mentions Gandalf and Saruman.

  • mP
    mP

    Identifying the signs is a bit more than simply taking any mentioned animals and mapping them to a constellation. Each and every sign often denotes one primary feature. Whats even more amazing is how perfect the 12 signs are listed in order and matched to each brother, one at a time.

    Coincidence ? or by design.

    Taurus is of course the bull which was used to plow. In the bible perhaps they also used donkeys to plow thus anyone in those times would have unhderstood the mapping. I dont agree w/ all the explaination but many seem right.

    http://milkywayastrology.wordpress.com/2010/06/13/the-zodiac-signs-and-the-twelve-tribes-of-israel-also-the-babylonian-zodiac/

    Aries- Gad, ‘a troop shall press upon him; but he shall press upon their heel,’ is Aries the Ram. Aries, being the first sign of the zodiac, ‘presses upon their heel’ in the circular zodiac. Gad is described as “a warrior, chief of his army,” very apt for the sign ruled by warlike Mars.

    Taurus- Issachar, ‘a gelded donkey lying down in the cattle pens’. Personally, I am not sure how a donkey equates to a bull. But both are beasts of burden.

    Gemini- Simeon and Levi, ‘the brethren,’ are Gemini, the Twins. (Note: Others place them in Pisces, as the two fishes.)

    Cancer- Benjamin, ‘ravening as a wolf, devouring his prey by morning, dividing the spoil at night,’ is Cancer the Crab. Cancer may viewed here as either food-oriented, acquisitive, or both.

    Leo- Judah, ‘the lion’s whelp,’ is obviously Leo the Lion.

    Virgo- Virgo is ‘veiled,’ and is correlated with Dinah, Jacob’s daughter, who is described in Genesis 30:21. This seems MUCH more logical than assigning a male personage to this sign.

    Libra- Asher, ‘the weigher of bread,’ is Libra, the Scales or Balance.

    Scorpio- Dan, ‘a serpent in the way,’ is Scorpio, who is variously pictured as a Scorpion, Snake, and Eagle. Llewellyn quotes Pike in regards to this sign: “Dan,bearing as his device a Scorpion, he compares to the Cerastes or horned Serpent, synonymous in astrological language with the vulture or pouncing eagle; and which bird was often substituted on the flag of Dan, in place of the venomous scorpion, on account of the terror which that reptile inspired, as the symbol of Typhon and his malign influences; wherefore the Eagle, as its paranatellon, that is, rising and setting at the same time with it, was naturally used in its stead.”

    Sagittarius- Joseph, ‘whose bow abides in strength,’ is of course the sign of the archer Sagittarius.

    Capricorn- Nephtali, ‘a hind let loose,’ is Capricorn the Goat.

    Aquarius- Reuben, ‘boiling over with water,’ is Aquarius, who holds a vase or cup and pours out the waters of the New Age.

    Pisces- Zebulon, ‘who shall dwell at the beach of the sea,’ is Pisces, the two Fishes. How many beachfront parks are named Zebulon? Oodles, that’s how many.

  • Bobcat
    Bobcat

    Kepler:

    I wonder how husband and wife as terminology were invented?

    "Husband" and "Wife" are English. (No sarcasm intended.) No doubt other languages have their own terms for marriage mates. But in Hebrew "Husband" is simply "Man," and "Wife" is simply "Woman." Translators will use "Husband" and "Wife" when the context calls for it (or when they think it calls for it; e.g. Genesis 6:2) Thus, Eve was Adam's "woman" and Adam was Eve's "man." Not unlike English slang.

    Incidentally, the Hebrew words for "man" and "woman" are related to each other in the same way the English words "man" and "woman" are related.

    By the way, interesting thought you raised about Satan. I think some of the development of the term may be buried in Jewish ? (I can't think of the term at the moment - something like commentary maybe)

    Take Care

  • botchtowersociety
    botchtowersociety

    I find the Tribes/Zodiac mapping a fascinating hypothesis. Perhaps the ancient Hebrews had different names for these constellations than in the modern Zodiac.

  • MrFreeze
    MrFreeze

    The Genesis creation account was written by several different people. Some of it was written many years after Moses' supposed existence.

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    It's not coincidence. It's definitely by design....the design of the person who creates the mapping suggestion. It is not something that is in the text, or even suggested by the text. The interpretive schema (in this case, the zodiac) imposed on the passage takes priority over the text itself. It is a classic case of eisegesis, and the features of the actual text must be massaged or set aside in order to make the parallels fit. I can see many examples of this in your suggestion. The twelve tribes supposedly map to twelve signs of the zodiac, yet two are lumped together (Levi and Simeon) to represent a single sign, Gemini, as they are mentioned together in v. 5; they are NOT twins either (as Gemini is supposed to be), as we can see in 29:33-34 (Leah conceived Levi only after she gave birth to Simeon), and indeed all twelve are "brothers" anyway....what groups Levi and Simeon together is their partnership in violence in attacking Shechem. That is the point in v. 5-7: "Their swords are weapons of violence....they have killed men in anger....cursed be their anger, so fierce, and their fury, so cruel". Does this resemble the mythology associated with Gemini (Castor and Pollux)? No. The identification of Simeon and Levi as Gemini is entirely eisegetical and arbitrary, and conflicts with the notion that 12 tribes = 12 zodiacal signs.

    And then Virgo is identified with Dinah, who isn't even a tribe, nor mentioned in the list anywhere in ch. 49. But since Dinah is female, then she is linked to Virgo for no other reason than that she is female; the schema imposed on the list in ch. 49 requires a female....no female is found in ch. 49....so one is supplied in ch. 30, which btw does not describe her as "veiled" per se. Does the story of Dinah at all resemble the mythology of Eragone or Astraea? Nope. How about the identification of Issachar with Taurus? Even you admit that this is a stretch. But you generalize the sign from "bull" to "beasts of burden" in order to get a match with Issachar's donkey. That's yet another contrivance to get things to fit. An even bigger stretch is linking Cancer with the "wolf" that represents Benjamin (v. 27). A wolf is like a crab because .... they are food-oriented? Are you serious? What animal isn't food-oriented! How is a wolf like a crab, or rather, how is a raven like a writing desk? Nevertheless you take an obvious miss to be, in fact, a hit. Similarly, a goat is not a deer (Naphtali, v. 21). I also notice in a number of instances that the original biblical statement is "improved upon" in order to make it better fit with an astrological sign. So for instance, this is what is said about Asher: " Asher’s food will be rich; he will provide delicacies fit for a king" (v. 20). All it refers to is food....and the supplying of food. In your version, Asher becomes "the weigher of bread". Where is there anything specifically about bread and the weighing of bread in the passage? But this then allows you to link "the weigher of bread" to Libra, the Scales. The metaphor of Reuben as being "turbulent as the waters" (v. 4) is quite clearly an allusion to waves and surf, of water in the ocean, but a reference to "water" apparently is good enough to link Reuben to Aquarius, a bearer of jars of still water. As for Zebulon, the text states that "Zebulon will live by the seashore, and become a haven for ships, his border will extend toward Sidon" (v. 13). Quite obviously a reference to the geography of the territory of Zebulon. But for some reason this is supposed to identify Zebulon with Pisces, the two Fishes. Why? Because fish are found in the sea? That's it? BTW, did you intend your reference to modern-day beachfront parks to be a joke, or were you seriously citing that as evidence supporting your reading of an ancient text? In any case, beachfront parks ≠ fish. Lastly, let's look at another "hit": the "bow" mentioned in relation to Joseph (v. 24). Gotta be Sagittarius, the Archer, right? Sounds good, until we see that the long passage about Joseph (v. 22-26) is chock-full with other metaphors and references: a vine, springs, a wall, a bull, a shepherd, a rock, skies, breasts, wombs, mountains, hills, a prince, etc. It seemed like you picked the one from this list that happened to fit...except there are other metaphors that could fit with other signs of the zodiac. Joseph is mentioned with the "Bull of Jacob"....so why isn't Joseph Taurus instead? Or maybe Virgo is the sign that correlates to Joseph, since Joseph is mentioned in connection with "breasts and womb" (hey, there's the feminine reference you were looking for!)? All this just shows how arbitrary the whole thing is.

    Finally, if there was anything to your idea, the very least you'd think the writer could do is list the tribes in the same order as the signs in the zodiac. Surely that would be the proof...the confirmation that your eisegetical enterprise is on the right track. But no, there is no similarity in order AT ALL: (1) Aquarius |Reuben, (2) Gemini|Simeon and Levi, (3) Leo|Judah, (4) Pisces|Zebulon, (5) Taurus|Issachar, (6) Scorpio|Dan, (7) Aries|Gad, (8) Libra|Asher, (9) Capricorn|Naphtali, (10) Sagittarius|Joseph, and (11) Cancer|Benjamin (with Virgo not even on the list), when the actual order of the zodiac is: (1) Aries, (2) Taurus, (3) Gemini, (4) Cancer, (5) Leo, (6) Virgo, (7) Libra, (8) Scorpio, (9) Sagittarius, (10) Capricorn, (11) Aquarius, and (12) Pisces. There isn't even a single adjacency (e.g. Aries-Taurus, Taurus-Gemini, Gemini-Cancer, Cancer-Leo, etc.). The connection just isn't there.

  • mP
    mP

    MY VIEW OF ASTROLOGY

    Firstly my observations and comments are not because I believe in astrology. I am however interested in how the ancients perceived how and why their world worked like it did. They didnt know about germs, so they made up the idea of evil spirits, curses and other nonsense. The Bible itself shows us these same ideas, which again shows the Jews were not that different from their neighbours. They also of course shared stories about floods, angels, a big sky daddy and more.

    @LEO

    Firstly most of your mistakes are simply because you have limited knowledge of astrology as perceived by the ancients.

    The concept of astrology as presented in todays papers is very much a product of that media and the masses it targets. Simply because it targets large numbers of people in an impersonal way there is no way for the astrologer to cold read and so on the subject which most likely did happen when rich kings and the like asked their astrologer for advise from the stars. Its not accurate to assume our modern view is the same as the past. For example the Jews today take a very and customs than their ancient forefathres even though they supposedly read the same Bible. I wont bore people about how times change perceptions of some fixed subject be it the sky, the world or even a book.

    Your commentary makes too many assumptions, that the animals and characters of the zodiac today are the same for all cultures in the past. The zodiac of today is not a perfect representation of the one in Egypt, Israel or Babylon. Just like the solar hero stories in each culture share many common themes, they each add their own distinctive flavour to the story. The stories of Samson and Hercules are both personifications of the Sun and its apparent journey across the sky. Each culture has for whatever reason, has explained the Sun in its own way. The zodiac signs are just random collections of stars. Different cultures see different things, none are right and it certainly doesnt matter for the pruposes of this discussion. The characters are just memory aides that capture role of that sign. Aires is about springtime, Leo the middle of the hot summer, Libra is the harvest.

    NOT ALL ASTROLOGY IN CULTURES ARE THE SAME.

    Below is a snippet showing the Chinese see a Dragon while the west sees a Ram as the sign representing the spring equinox. I dont want to get into procession and the movements of the signs, so lets keep this simple.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon_(zodiac)

    Zodiac Location5th
    Ruling hours7am-10am
    DirectionEast-southeast
    Motto“I Reign” [2]
    Season and monthSpring, April
    Fixed elementWood [3] [4]
    StemPositive
    Lunar Month DatesApril 5 – May 4
    BirthstoneBloodstone
    ColorsRed and Violet
    Roughly equivalent western sign

    If we attempt to read Genesis 49 using our modern signs there are of course not perfect matches as you have attempted to point out. Its also important to note that the Hebrews did not use a 12 month year but instead used lunar months which means their calendar is a not a perfect match for ours in a simple way. These flavours of course add to the variation.

    JEWISH VIEWS

    In the interests of completness i have added a few notes, that astrology was not completely foreign to the Jews. They actually like many other peoples believed in its powers.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_views_on_astrology#Hebrew_calendar_correlation_to_zodiac

    In addition to its display in synagogues from the most ancient, such as Beth Alpha, to relatively modern, such as the Bialystocker Synagogue in the Lower East Side of New York City, the zodiac has been shown to correspond to the months of the Hebrew calendar.

    ...

    Rabbi Abraham ben David of Posquières , in his critical notes to Maimonides' Mishneh Torah , Teshuvah , 5:5, asserts the influence of the stars upon destiny, while also contending that by faith in God man may overcome this influence.

    Maimonides is perhaps one of the most famous rabbical commentators in all jewish history and he himself asknocledges astrology as being real. I wont comment on whther he was a fool because thats immaterial to my original assertion.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_astronomy

    Chronology and the zodiac
    Main article: Hebrew calendar

    Chronology was a chief consideration in the study of astronomy among the Jews; sacred time was based upon the cycles of the Sun and the Moon. The Talmud identified the twelve constellations of the zodiac with the twelve months of the Hebrew calendar. The correspondence of the constellations with their names in Hebrew and the months is as follows:

    1. Aries - ?aleh - Nisan
    2. Taurus - Shor - Iyar
    3. Gemini - Teomim - Sivan
    4. Cancer - Sar?on - Tammuz
    5. Leo - Ari - Av
    6. Virgo - Betulah - Elul
    7. Libra - Moznayim - Tishrei
    8. Scorpio - 'A?rab - Cheshvan
    9. Sagittarius - ?asshat - Kislev
    10. Capricorn - Gedi - Tevet
    11. Aquarius - D'li - Shevat
    12. Pisces - Dagim - Adar

    The first three are in the east, the second three in the south, the third three in the west, and the last three in the north; and all are attendant on the sun. According to one account, in the first three months (spring) the Sun travels in the south, in order to melt the snow; in the fourth through sixth months (summer) it travels directly above the earth, in order to ripen the fruit; in the seventh through ninth months (autumn) it travels above the sea, in order to absorb the waters; and in the last three months (winter) it travels over the desert, in order that the grain may not dry up and wither.

    According to one conception, Aries, Leo, and Sagittarius face northward; Taurus, Virgo, and Capricornus westward; Gemini, Libra, and Aquarius southward; and Cancer, Scorpio, and Pisces eastward. Some scholars identified the twelve signs of the zodiac with the twelve tribes of Israel.

    The four solstices (the Te?ufot of Nisan, Tammuz, Tishrei, and Tevet) are often mentioned as determining the seasons of the year and there are occasional references to the rising-place of the sun ('Er. 56a). Sometimes six seasons of the year are mentioned (Gen. R. xxxiv. 11), and reference is often made to the receptacle of the sun (ναρθ?κιον), by means of which the heat of the orb is mitigated (Gen. R. vi. 6, and elsewhere). The Moon was also a part of the calendar: "The moon begins to shine on the 1st of the month; its light increases until the 15th, when the disk [(δ?σκοσ)] is full; from the 15th to the 30th it wanes; and on the 30th it is invisible" (Ex. R. xv. 26).

    MORE PROOFS

    http://www.lexiline.com/lexiline/lexi27.htm

    Table IIBreastplate Jewels of the High Priest
    The Twelve Tribes
    Zodiac, Month, Tribe, Settlement
    by F. Graham Millar
    Halifax Centre, RASC (Royal Astronomical Society of Canada)
    Website use with permission of the late copyright-holding author. LexiLine - A Renaissance in Learning

    MY COMMENTARY

    So why am i giving all these examples ? What im saying is some of the "differences" are simply because YOU are not aware of the character and attributes of the ancient Hebrew signs.

    @Leo

    Nope. How about the identification of Issachar with Taurus? Even you admit that this is a stretch. But you generalize the sign from "bull" to "beasts of burden" in order to get a match with Issachar's donkey

    MP

    I am not generalising, I dont know the animal that represented Taurus in the Hebrew system. But given T is a bull which is all about plowing in spring time its not unfair to assert a donkey is a reasonable match.

    LEO

    Lastly, let's look at another "hit": the "bow" mentioned in relation to Joseph (v. 24). Gotta be Sagittarius, the Archer, right?

    MP

    Sure, what else is the purpose of that thought ? Does it make any sense in any other context ? Say what you want of the authors of the Bible, they may were not fools, every word, pun, symbolism had meaning to them and their audience. Unfortunately we have lost much of that.

    Somehow i think your just nit picking on some of your other critiques. Yes Gen 49 is all nonsense, but it was placed there for a reason and has meaning. THe best fit in light of the rest of the OT is its a chapter filled w/ astrological motifs. Just beause you have limited knowledge on the matter and cant see it does nt make it wrong. Other more learned scholars and identities think otherwise.

    The OT is nothing more than astrotheology, im not sure if you believe that but nature was the source of all religions and their myths. Appreciate this and its not hard to seee how so much of the weird and nonsense is explained ina aconsistant manner.

    JOSEPHUS AND PHILO

    My comments have little weight as I am not a scholar and I have the disadvantage of not living 2000 years ago like Josephus and Philo. Whatever we say about the temple is commentary, Josephus for all his faults himself said the twelve tribes are reprseentations of the zodiac. He also states that there was a zodiac wheel in the temple. Its strange for all of Jesus rants about the evils in and aroound the temple there is not a single note about a zodiac wheel being present.

    See Exodus 39:9-14: "...they made the breastplate... And they set in it four rows of stones... And the stones were according to the names of the children of Israel, twelve...according to the twelve tribes."

    As Josephus says (Antiquities, 3.8 ): "And for the twelve stones, whether we understand by them the months or whether we understand the like number of the signs of that circle which the Greeks call the zodiac, we shall not be mistaken in their meaning." (Josephus, 75.)

    Earlier than Josephus, Philo ("On the Life of Moses," 12) had made the same comments regarding Moses: "Then the twelve stones on the breast, which are not like one another in colour, and which are divided into four rows of three stones in each, what else can they be emblems of, except of the circle of the zodiac?" (Philo, 99.)

    As we can see, by the first century it was well known that the theme of "the 12" was astrological in nature.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_symbolism

    The priests

    The Hebrew for priest is Kohen; the Kohanim (plural) mediated between God and man by offering sacrifices, and by other services in the Temple. The leader of them the Kohen Gadol, the high priest.

    The vestments of the high priest were interpreted in three ways. The explanation of Philo is as follows ("Vita Mosis," iii. 209): His upper garment was the symbol of the ether, while the blossoms represented the earth, the pomegranates typified running water, and the bells denoted the music of the water. The ephod corresponded to heaven, and the stones on both shoulders to the two hemispheres, one above and the other below the earth. The six names on each of the stones were the six signs of the zodiac, which were denoted also by the twelve names on the breastplate. The miter was the sign of the crown, which exalted the high priest above all earthly kings.

    Josephus' explanation is this [1] : The coat was the symbol of the earth, the upper garment emblemized heaven, while the bells and pomegranates represented thunder and lightning. The ephod typified the four elements, and the interwoven gold denoted the glory of God. The breastplate was in the center of the ephod, as the earth formed the center of the universe; the girdle symbolized the ocean, the stones on the shoulders the sun and moon, and the jewels in the breastplate the twelve signs of the zodiac, while the miter was a token of heaven.

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    The issue here isn't whether ancient Jews practiced a form of astrology; there is no doubt that they did, as can be witnessed through such sources as the Trestise of Shem (first century BC) and 4Q186 (first century BC). The issue also isn't whether the twelve tribes of Israel (as a group) could have been understood in zodiacal terms; we know that in the first century AD this was in fact the case (cf. Philo of Alexandria, Quaestiones in Exodum 2.112-114, Josephus, Bellum Judaicum 5.217). So the bulk of what you posted does not address my criticism. What I am pointing out is that your zodaical interpretation of the Blessing of Jacob (Genesis 49), mapping specific signs to specific tribes, is not supported by the text. Since writers many centuries later (even a millennium later if the Blessing of Jacob dates to the end of the second millennium BC, as some scholars believe) took the tribes as having zodiacal representations, it is certainly legitimate to hypothesize that there could be a relationship but that alone does not mean that there is one. My last post demonstrated that such a relationship is not tenable. Only through an arbitrary series of contrivances could one make such a claim; it is hardly one arising naturally from the text.

    I cannot discuss the details of all the signs as I did in my last post (much too time consuming), so I will focus on just one representative example: Taurus. I pointed out that your identification of Taurus with Issachar is a MISS because a bull is not a donkey. You claim that it was a HIT because both bulls and donkeys are beasts of burden, and I criticized this as a contrived generalizing between donkeys and cattle in order to get a match with Issachar's donkey. In response, you said, "I am not generalising," when in fact that is exactly what you are doing. You claim a HIT because both bulls and donkeys are beasts of burden: that's generalizing to some abstract commonality between them, despite the fact that the text neither specifies bulls nor beasts of burden in general. You say "given T[aurus] is a bull which is all about plowing in spring time its not unfair to assert a donkey is a reasonable match", which makes my point about how arbitrary this is. And further you say "I don't know the animal that represented Taurus in the Hebrew system". I notice that you have said similar things about the other signs: other apparent mismatches could result from the Hebrew system being different, having different animals. But the Hebrew system, or the other ANE systems (such as the Egyptian and Babylonian zodiacs) for that matter, are not shrouded in mystery where we could blindly attribute to them any mismatch; your own post even pastes a table from Wikipedia delineating the Hebrew zodiac, which states that the Hebrew equivalent of the sign of Taurus was Shor; that's the Hebrew word for "bull". The Babylonian zodiac was the same: the sign corresponding to Taurus was called Alû, the Bull of Heaven, in Akkadian. And indeed it was the same thing again in the Egyptian zodiac: from its earliest representation in the tomb of Senemnut (18th Dynasty) to the Ptolemaic era, it was always represented as a bull. And Shor was indeed the ancient Jewish name for Taurus; for instance we read in 4Q186 that a person who is born with his "sign" (mwlk) "in the foot of Taurus" (b-rgl h-shwr) would be poor and "his animal would be the bull (bhmtw shwr)" (1.2:8-9). And universally Taurus is represented as a bull in Hellenistic Jewish synagogue iconography. So in short there is not a sliver of evidence that Taurus could be represented by a donkey instead of a bull. Similarly you cannot resolve the difficulties with the other signs (such as the deer and wolf) by stating "not all cultures have the same zodiac". None of the zodiacs attested in the ANE have anything corresponding to what is given in the text; they do not supply the parallels missing in the familiar Greek zodiac (which is derivative of that of the Egyptians and Babylonians). To overlook this to maintain that the mismatches are in fact matches (a crab is reeeealy a wolf, honest!) is to basically save the hypothesis from any falsifying facts....and if it cannot be falsified, it is worthless as an explanation.

    Also, interestingly, your post reposts a table by F. Graham Millar as "more proof". This is not proof of anything about ancient Judaism, as it is simply a modern claim by a writer who is not even a scholar in ANE religion or archaeology (he appears to have been a meteorologist professionally, who was a hobbyist in biblical matters). But what is interesting here is that you quote this as further proof of your identifications of the twelve tribes in Genesis 49 without noticing that Millar's identifications are dramatically different from your own.

    Sign: Millar | mP
    Scorpio: Manasseh |Dan
    Sagittarius: Benjamin | Joseph
    Capricorn: Dan | Naphtali
    Aquarius: Asher | Reuben
    Pisces: Naphtali | Zebulon
    Aries: Judah | Gad
    Taurus: Issachar | Issachar
    Gemini: Zebulon | Simeon and Levi
    Cancer: Reuben | Benjamin
    Leo: Simeon | Judah
    Virgo: Gad | Dinah
    Libra: Ephraim | Asher

    The only commonality is found in Taurus; 11 out of 12 of the signs do not agree. What does this show? It shows just how arbitrary and contrived this whole zodiac mapping business is.

  • mP
    mP

    so what is gen 49 about... why does jacob say all sorts of nonsense ? its a difficult chapter, ill grant that, however there are clear astrological themes in there, while others are difficult w/out some thought. perhaps you assert my assertions include contrived examples, howver parts are valud which make explaining that chapter an interesting exercisr.

    im not sure why you focus on greek astrology, the book of genesis was supposed to have been finalized before the spread of greek culture particylarly w/ alexanders empire. i cant speak for millars list nor did i say i agree w/ his selections, i was just trying to show some support for the idea of the tribes = zodiac signs. i was attempting to lay some ground work thst the idea is not ridiculous and this chapter is part of that story..

    i cant s

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