Odd, isn't it? Genesis never mentions Satan; Job mentions a serpent or Adam maybe once or not at all - and Eve gets 4 refs in whole Bible

by kepler 30 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  kepler

  My concordance searches indicate Eve is mentioned twice in the OT and twice in the New. I guess elsewhere in Genesis she must be the wife or the woman. Interesting: Since she was the only woman in the world and Adam was the only man, I wonder how husband and wife as terminology were invented? But I'm digressing.

  "Now the serpent..." That's how this whole metaphysical structure is introduced in Gen 3:1. And mentioned no more after 3:14. "Dan shall be a serpent" in Gen 49:17, but, "he will be a snake on the road, a viper on the path, who bistes the horse on the hock so that its rider falls backwards." He will also govern his people like any other of the tribes of Israel." Gen 49:16. Then Moses did some things with staff and serpents in Exodus...

  Job at 26:13: (KJV) By his spirit he hath garnished the heavens; his hand hath formed the crooked serpent.

  My New Jerusalem Bible only has verses 1 -4 in Chapter 26.

  Again, Job on Adam (KJV 31:33):"If I covered my transgressions, as Adam, by hiding my iniquity in my bosom..."

  The NJB: "Have I ever concealed my transgression from others or kept my fault a secret in my breast?"

  Is it possible that references to Adam and the serpent in KJV are what are known as "glosses"? I thought that only happened when someone had evidence in a text for the Trinity.

  So here we go. I just noticed a lengthy animated topic on Satan and Adam's talk in the Garden. But yet as far as I can tell, Adam didn't even get to speak with the Serpent. And surprisingly, in one of the 2 instances of Eve's name in the NT, we can quote Paul in II Corinthians 11:3. "I am afaid that, just as the serpent with his cunning seduced Eve, your minds may be led astray from single-minded devotion to Christ. " As he relates, he is concerned that others teaching other Gospels will lead people astray. But what is Paul driving at? Because he speaks of Adam's sin in Romans 5:14. Adam, as far as I can tell, if he did not deal directly with the serpent, was covering for Eve. Even by Paul's logic, the Serpent does not figure in this issue between Adam and God. And judging from what transpires in the story of Job, why should I think otherwise. In the trials of Job, whatever their basis, God and Satan have nothing to say about the "Adam and Eve Incident".

  But all the same, for every page of the Bible, we have a NY-based publisher that is willing to write hundreds of thousands of pages of dogmatic commentary to be treated with the same veneration or more. The connections between garden serpent, Satan, Adam and Job are all readily apparent because we have been hearing about them for so long. And why? On the authority that this publishing agency has vested in itself based on the PARABLE near the end of Matthew 24 (45-51), tying itself to the servant discussed in the second part of Isaiah (chapters 40-55).

  The synoptic Gospels give three accounts of Jesus describing the destruction of the Temple, but only Matthew provides this parable. In other words, focus on Luke 17 or Mark 12-13 would you leave with a different impression of the consequences of Jerusalem's future travails. In Luke it sounds more like the Rapture of other Protestant sects [ 34: I tell you, on that night, when two are in one bed, one will be taken" - this sounds like more than 144,000]. In Mark the instruction is directed toward all: be a faithful doorkeeper awaiting the master of the house. And when I read Matthew, I see a story with a bifurcation: a branch related to a master pleased with his servant's conduct; the other, a description of the master's anger if the servant is derelict or abusive to those left in his charge. But in none of these do I see anything with Rutherford or his successor's names on it - any more than anyone else's, save for the obvious boasts of being prophets.
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  binadub

  What if "Satan" the "Devil" is simply the antithesis of the "Holy Spirit"?

  ~Binadub
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  mP

  You might be shocked to know that Jesus is never mentioned by name or relationship in the OT at all. Neither is Nazareth, nor is the concept of an earth coming Messiah. In fact if you check the prophecies that JC supposedly fulfilled, you will find they are completely broken and corrupted.
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  mP

  Gen 49 is nothing more than a mapping of the 12 tribes to their respective zodiac signs. If you attempt this exercise yourself you will see that more than half are easily spotted. Judah = lion = leo, i will leave the remainder as an exercise.
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  Cold Steel

  It's not unusual that Eve is not mentioned in that she made so significant contributions to religious thought. We also know very little about Adam after he and Eve were expelled from the Garden. The New Testament adds that Eve was deceived by the serpent and that Adam was not. This raises the question of where the information came from. It's very possible that there were other sacred books that the apostles had access to. What most Christians don't realize is that the Fall of man was entirely engineered. In other words, it was intended that man should fall.

  Why? Because man could not progress in his current situation. He simply had an immortal body and was stuck in the Garden. There was nothing he could do to better himself or Eve. They were simply in a menagerie and it was highly unlikely that they could reproduce in that state. And even if they could, they could not give their children the benefit of any knowledge or understanding. Their children would have been as interesting as a bag of bricks, incapable of gleaning knowledge or passing it on. They were innocents, and putting them in an environment with a creature of pure evil and deception was asking for it. And foolishly, Satan played into it. God's plan was to make Adam and his posterity capable of becoming like the resurrected Christ -- intelligent beings of pure power and glory. Thus, they had to pass through death and then be redeemed. (John repeatedly says that Christians will become like Christ in power and intelligence, and as He sits on the throne of His Father, we also will become co-heirs and sit on that throne with Him.

  Jesus was resurrected as a being of flesh and bone, animated by pure spirit instead of blood. The Earth, too, will benefit from the Fall and the Atonement, becoming a world of pure glory and light. Those who are resurrected to Eternal Life will not be restored to a crass garden to live out countless billions of years tending flocks and holding family reunions. Man will be able to visit anyplace in the Universe and the wonders that they hold. He may also take part in the creation process, helping to carry on the works of God throughout eternity. In short, nothing will be withheld and man will have access to all knowledge and power. Adam most likely had no idea that the Fall was engineered, but he followed Eve because he had been commanded to multiply and fill the earth, something he could not do if Eve had been banished. Thus, he was not deceived. He most likely kept records and mentioned Eve, but those records have been long since lost.

  As far as Satan is concerned, it's almost inconceivable that the prophets would be ignorant of his existence. Remember that the history of God's dealing with mankind is one major apostasy after another. They certainly knew of evil, but the danger of teaching the existence of a being like Satan in their day was that it's likely that some element of man would attempt to worship him as an alternative to God. Even in our day that has been a problem, despite our sophistication and superior knowledge.

  After the beginning of the Millennium, all of this will be explained in further detail. But until then, I wouldn't worry about how many times Eve was mentioned in the writings of Moses and the other prophets.
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  King Solomon

  Interesting: Since she was the only woman in the world and Adam was the only man, I wonder how husband and wife as terminology were invented?

  Attend any JW marriage, and they always refer to God's giving Eve to Adam as the first marriage ceremony (in Gen 2, I think: you know, the bit about ribs taken from Adam, bone of my bone, flesh of my flesh).

  Again, Job on Adam (KJV 31:33):"If I covered my transgressions, as Adam, by hiding my iniquity in my bosom..."

  The NJB: "Have I ever concealed my transgression from others or kept my fault a secret in my breast?"

  Uh, Adam apparently managed to hide from the presence of omnipresent YHWH (scriptures say Adam hid from the presence of the Lord, and hence why you had YHWH calling out, "Where art thou, Adam?" as if they were playing Marco Polo or Hide-and-Seek). But if cowering in the Garden and hiding was considered equivalent to "concealing his sin", then, sure (although Adam quickly admitted it, and passed the blame to Eve and back to God).

  BTW, the serpent is a symbol loaded with meaning within much of the World's mythology; it means NOTHING to us today, since the cultural significance has been lost to most. Understanding the implications of a talking serpent is a very DEEP issue.

  Re: the inconsistencies found between the various Gospels, that was the basis for Prof Bart Ehrman's initial loss of faith while pursuing his doctor of divinity degree (he's now a Professor, teaching scriptural criticism, and author of many books on the topic). One of his assignments for his students to do is perform a side-by-side comparison of the various accounts by the apostles (remember that they were written 40 yrs AFTER the events depicted took place, and many authors were not even eyewitnesses to the events, or hadn't met Christ).

  Also, remember that the books that appear in the Bible are but a small COLLECTION of such stories commonly written at the time, as popular fiction. There's many books which didn't make the cut (canonization process, which took place 400 yrs later). Same thing with the apocryphal works found and called the Dead Sea Scrolls (probably an Essene library, a Jewish cult at the time of Christ, along with the Pharisees and Saducees: some of Jesus' most inspired famous words and slogans can be found in their writings which survive, as he was ripping off their concepts). Few modern believers have heard of, much less read, eg the Book of Enoch, etc.
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  yadda yadda 2

  You'd think any issues about universal sovereignty raised by Adam and Eve's rebellion would have been settled as soon as they died. Satan said "You positively will not die and you will be like God, knowing good and bad." They certainly came to know good and bad all right, but they got evicted from the Garden of Eden and spent the next nearly 1,000 years toiling away until they died. So they didn't become like God and they died. Case closed, devil proven a fraudulent liar.

  But no, 6000 years of untold suffering and horror (including millions of innocent babies and children dying of all manner of disease like smallpox, polio, diptheria, etc etc - where did these come from?) all because Eve, who'd been around 5 minutes, got tricked like a naive child into eating a piece of fruit.

  Absurd.
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  King Solomon

  You'd think any issues about universal sovereignty raised by Adam and Eve's rebellion would have been settled as soon as they died.

  No, you're getting it ALL wrong. See, God is long-suffering and kind (when He wants to be, right? Except for the Flood thing: he blew a fuse with that one). He wants to give Satan every chance to see the error of his ways, and they could kiss and make up (no matter how many humans have to die before it happens). ;)
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  Cold Steel

  "You positively will not die and you will be like God, knowing good and bad."

  Knowing good and bad??

  Where in the hell did you get that translation? "Bad" is a stale cup of coffee. "Bad" is sour milk. "Bad" is defined as "Not achieving an adequate standard; poor...." Can it mean "evil"? Well, yes, but it's an extremely poor choice. If one were to speak of Satan saying that he was, in his heart, evil, it would have a specific meaning. To say that Satan was, in his heart, bad, is more akin to the Grinch (who was probably good since he stole that nasty pagan holiday, Christmas).

  The Hebrew word is "evil"... not "bad." In fact, I'm familiar with most Bible translations and I don't know of one that translates that word as "bad." Are you going from memory or is this the JW translation? If it is the JW translation, please take it and dump it in the nearest waste bin and steal a Gideon Bible from a hotel.

  Now that's BAD!

  Yeesh...that translation is just plain...well, you know.
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  kepler

  Hi, folks.

  I appreciate the contributions on this subject. Sorry I hadn't responded earlier. To be honest, I didn't know what I could add.

  Until finally. I noticed that as I rambled on above I had stumbled over an important doctrine.

  "On the authority that this publishing agency has vested in itself based on the PARABLE near the end of Matthew 24 (45-51), tying itself to the servant discussed in the second part of Isaiah (chapters 40-55). "

  I had of this often enough, but I hadn't realized some of the background. Cameron_Don, brings up the matter on another thread.

  http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/229474/1/Applying-Chapter-21-e2809cCaptives-of-a-Concepte2809d

  What I took away from that is that these matters about a faithful slave were not even brought up in 1914-1920, much less resolved in favor of a governing body. I had seen elsewhere that in effusive declarations at Russell's funeral, he was named as such, but if he was - then what did that make his successors?

  It also has bearing on another topic I started earlier, about how can you witness something that you cannot see.