Atheists: Lowest Retention Rate Next to JWs

by breakfast of champions 173 Replies latest jw friends

  • Sulla
    Sulla

    Life is wonderful, mysterious and beautiful. I wonder about life the unviverse and everything constantly.

    You use these terms in the popular sense. By that, I simply mean that you call something beautiful without asserting that things so described are in any way a reflection of ultimate Beauty (to borrow a Platonic concept). A good atheist rejects the idea of any ultimate good, which implies a rejection of these related, and charmingly capitalized, terms: Truth, Beauty, Justice, Love, etc.

    You'd agree with me, cofty, about this. And that is what I mean. I certainly didn't mean to say you don't think pretty sunsets are pretty.

  • Berengaria
  • Berengaria
    Berengaria
    A good atheist rejects the idea of any ultimate good, which implies a rejection of these related, and charmingly capitalized, terms: Truth, Beauty, Justice, Love, etc.

    What a silly thing to say.

  • tec
    tec

    Respectfully, Q, there is a problem when you don't make a distinction between religious idiots and other believers. It is not belief that is dangerous. It is what someone believes that can be dangerous. I consider your belief that all belief is dangerous, to be its own kind of

    danger.

    Agreed. Lumping all people who do not believe as you do into an "dangerous camp"... is dangerous thinking. Regardless of whether it is some atheists doing it, or some particular religious group. It is divisive (dangerously so), and prejudiced, and a person can be condemned for not ever having done something deserving of such. Thought crimes become belief crimes. I think we have had enough examples of the danger in this thinking throughout history, that we might consider trying something new... something that doesn't include harmony by getting everyone to think and believe the same thing.

    It is the same thing that atheists are decrying that some religious people do.. think of them as untrustworthy and dangerous, and discriminate against them... simply because they do not believe in God?

    Peace,

    tammy

  • King Solomon
    King Solomon

    Sully say:

    I think that the religious impulse is something like a natural response to life, its mystery and beauty. And I have the feeling that many atheists are attempting to reject those elements in an effort to control our uncontrollable lives. By rejecting mystery, though, an atheist rejects life, really. Viewed this way, it is hardly a surprise that children of atheists must find that they reject it: it is difficult to live so grimly and so at odds with humanity.

    The counter-argument is most xians are quite content to look at the World with wide-eyed gaze of wonderment, looking at stars as simply being distant lights that only point to the glory of God, and nothing deeper. Not asking how far they are, or how long the light took to reach Earth, or what the colors indicate, etc.

    It's like any Watchtower that shows a lion standing in the New System, not as a predator, but simply a pet, a play-thing for the kids to crawl all over, frolick with, and pet. It's a very naive, human-centered Disneyesque view of animals, ignoring the perspective that observational field study by a naturalist would see (eg watching them hunt for food, etc).

    They seem afraid to learn the mechanisms by which the natural World operates, in fear of learning or infringing on God's secrets (or perhaps out of laziness, not willing to put in the effort required to learn).

    A niece who's a JW commented how nice it will be in the New System when she FINALLY has time to learn about whatever we were talking about: I told her I didn't go to college simply because it was fun to learn, but to APPLY that knowledge to solve real-World problems. Of course, there's no reason to learn about science, since all needs will be provided for: God will provide clean energy, clean food, etc. It would be a World of busy work, technician-level jobs.

    You'd agree with me, cofty, about this. And that is what I mean. I certainly didn't mean to say you don't think pretty sunsets are pretty.

    Dawkins' latest book (The Magic of Reality: How We Know Whats Really True) takes a different tack from his prior books, as it's written for children and young adults and looks at the fascinating elements to be found in the natural world, eg explaining how a rainbow works, etc. Maybe I'm the odd ball out, but I've always found that understanding the mechanisms of how things work (say, understanding music theory) doesn't remove the beauty or enjoyment of the subject, but enhances it.

    Huh? You can't be angry at something you believe does not exist. Period. If you are angry at god, you are not an atheist. You are simply a disgruntled believer. We aren't talking about a journey, we are talkiing about a conclusion.

    And that highlights the problem how people who self-identify their belief cannot be expected to categorize themselves accurately: they're only human.

  • EntirelyPossible
    EntirelyPossible

    For example check out this online quiz that "tests" your ability to read science paper jargon. When atheists start spouting scientific information they can be and often are being dogmatic.

    I got 8 out of 8 on the quiz.

    Oh, and when atheists, like me, spout information, it's an attempt educate otherwise ignorance people that won't read a book on it watch a show on it.

    A synonym with the word dogmatic is "opinionated" and that's exactly what science is: opinion set to the strict standards of the scientific method. It changes as new data is put on the table and therefore the definition of the term data becomes an important "tenent" of the scientific discipline. Science is religious, but it shouldn't be.

    I bolded the MOST wrong part of that for you.

    Hypothesis, ideas about what observations and tests will result in, sure, have an opinion there. The scientific method, however, is strictly and specifically designed to weed out opinion, peer review is designed to weed out bias.

    Scientists LOVE learning something new. That's the whole point. It doesn't work, at ALL if it's all just opinions.

  • NewChapter
    NewChapter

    I just took the quiz. I missed one. :( But it was the math one,and I never count math. :)

  • EntirelyPossible
    EntirelyPossible

    It was dismissed: either the study was flawed, or ...

    While I am surprised at the results, I am not ready to dismiss it based on just that. I would like to see how they gathered data, the questions they asked. Polling is an interesting science, framing the order in which you list questions can dramatically change the outcome.

  • sabastious
    sabastious
    I got 8 out of 8 on the quiz.

    What is your IQ and how much total time in your life have you spent learning science? My whole point is that science is a discipline just as, say, Presbyterianism is a discipline. Not that they share the same quality of standards, but that they both require an extensive time sink in order to fully understand. Science is NOT simple, the conclusions are. The peer review method is limited to the fact that there is a wide range of intelligence that inhabit this planet. The less driven or ones with inferior intellect are left to have faith in other people often shrouded in fame. Should someone be drawn to a religious discipline because it's easier to understand or less dogmatic?

    Oh, and when atheists, like me, spout information, it's an attempt educate otherwise ignorance people that won't read a book on it watch a show on it.

    Obviously you have spent a great deal of time studying the scientific discipline. Just because educational books and shows exist doesn't mean that everyone is capable of accepting the lines of reasoning just as you are. What you call proof is not what everyone calls proof. What about people who have learning disabilities? Tough titty said the kitty? Religion offers answers even for the layman and have an upper echelon of guru's that keep up on science while remaining transparent. Even the people who DO read the books (which is a lot to ask for someone in this fast paced modern world, btw) may not be able to accept articles of science that contradict their long held world view which is created by their experiences meshed with the information taken in. You seek to assimilate, not educate. You are in the business of domination.

    Hypothesis, ideas about what observations and tests will result in, sure, have an opinion there. The scientific method, however, is strictly and specifically designed to weed out opinion, peer review is designed to weed out bias.
    o·pin·ion /?'piny?n/
    Noun:
    1. A view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge.
    2. The beliefs or views of a large number or majority of people about a particular thing.

    There are different ranges of opinion. There is official scientific opinion that is created by the scientific method and checked by peer review. What you end up with is an officialized opinion which holds weight over an opinion which is not.

    of·fi·cial /?'fiSH?l/
    Adjective:
    Of or relating to an authority or public body and its duties, actions, and responsibilities.

    Essentially the scientific community is an authority of science. Atheist agenda want to call science reality and if they can do that that means they are the authority on reality. Like the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses they get to say what's right and what's wrong. Similarily they also do not claim infallibility, but insist on remaining a formidable authority in the world. Your "scientific books and tv shows" that you refer to correlate exactly with the Watchtower's need to church out dogma in their literature. My point was that scientists can be dogmatic and therefore atheists can be dogmatic and they are dogmatic. They have literature like all religions and they require extensive education and intellect to understand. Science just has many more tiers than the simplistic Watchtower paradise formula.

    Scientists LOVE learning something new. That's the whole point. It doesn't work, at ALL if it's all just opinions.

    They also love to ridicule anyone who decides to stray from the community and try to remain unstained from the corruption of absolute power.

    -Sab

  • TheClarinetist
    TheClarinetist

    I've downloaded the data set and am looking into it, as I believe the source from the article is biased.

    EDIT: Finding software is going to be a b*tch, so I may have to give up... But I'll at least make a valient effort.

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