Why did Lazarus Pay for his sins twice?

by criticalwitness 33 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • criticalwitness

    according to j dub doc the wages sins pays is death meaning to them death covers your debt of sin when lazarus died did he not pay his debt? so when jesus resctd him why did he die again? and of what? when jesus brought him back did he creat or recreat an imperfect being on the sinful road to destruction? did he put sin back into him?


    You could go mad thinking about it.

    Nevertheless, if you live twice you have to die twice - unless you are James Bond.

  • I Want to Believe
    I Want to Believe

    Yes, Jesus did raise back an imperfect person, which is something I always thought strange about the resurrection in general: After the Big A, God is supposed to bring back everyone, even those dead for thousands of years, into brand new bodies. It was even mentioned at one point in a WT that they may not even have the same exact physical features (sorry, don't have the CD library on me), yet they will all still need to "grow to perfection" over a thousand years. Wouldn't that mean that, after death paid for their sin and Jesus already paid the ransom that Jehovah would have to create brand new sinful bodies for them? WTH?

  • OldGenerationDude

    According to non-JW Christian doctrine, perfect human beings would have grown out of mortality as one grows out of infancy, childhood, adolescence. Under this understanding the "mortal" existence would eventually die to be supplanted by something else. Because of the complexity of this teaching which is generally learned in collegiate level theology, the Governing Body has neither been exposed to this exegetical theory nor teaches it. This is why we end up with a paradox if we try to apply their view on death and resurrection.

    The eschatology of some Christian faiths speak of Adam and Eve experiencing a “death” in the mortal state upon entering immortality had they not sinned as originally described in Genesis (this "death" of mortality is symbolized by eating from the “Tree of Life” and understood as entering into immortality). Death is thus not viewed as a fault, imperfection, or punishment in all eschatological systems as it is in the JW theology. Wisdom 4:10-19 (accepted by the majority of Christians as an inspired text) states that death is often a reward from God in some instances.

    Regardless of our own view of the book of Wisdom or the validity of religious eschatology in general, the problematic reasoning of the Watchtower doctrine shows the limitation of the Governing Body. They hold that Romans 6:7 (which states that a person who has died has paid the penalty of death) applies in all circumstances. This is due to their view of the atonement and what is referred to as “ransom theory.”

    The Governing Body paints their “Jehovah” as a blood-thirsty God who demands appeasement or literal penal substitution in human terms of life, flesh and blood. Christianity, on the other hand, views sacrifice of all kinds as a symbol and a metaphor for what Christ accomplished in the Passion. The “satisfaction” offered to God in Christian theology does not refer to “gratification” in the sense used by the Governing Body or in the vernacular. Instead it is viewed as “restitution.”

    But it is a very complex theology that branches out into several forms of exegetical theory that would be best researched elsewhere due to space and time considerations. The bottom line is that outside of the Watchtower exegesis, Lazarus death is not a literal “payment for the penalty of sin” as the Governing Body misunderstands the application of Romans 6:7. The Pauline statement is in the context of a diatribe, arguing with fictionalized “Judaizers” in the context of Torah (over whether Mosaic Law can declare persons righteous on its own terms or if Christ’s coming was necessary). Because neither the Devil, nor the angels can demand or merit satisfaction for sins committed by Adam and Eve against God, only God’s terms need be satisfied. According to Christian theology, literal sacrifice of human blood and life as a penal subtitution for Adam to God is not what occurred at the Cross.

    Besides, if Romans 6:7 applies outside of the context of discussing Torah vs. “grace via Christ,” then Christ would not be necessary because everyone would have ‘paid for their sins’ by their own death. Obviously more than the Law’s requirement of a “death” of each sinner was necessary, which is the totality of the Pauline argument. Therefore the raising of Lazarus, Jairus’ daughter, and the young man of Naim demonstrate a clear failure in the Governing Body’s theology.

  • kurtbethel

    Please cite the scripture that says Lazarus died again after he was resurrected. I have never found one.

  • sir82
    Please cite the scripture that says Lazarus died again after he was resurrected. I have never found one.

    Yeah, maybe he's a zombie. Or a vampire.

  • Jim_TX
    Yeah, maybe he's a zombie. Or a vampire.

    Naw - he's the original Highlander, and is immortal.

    But seriously, I asked this very same question when I was still a JW. Never got an answer that satisfied me.

    There was also another young boy that Jesus resurrected. Not any details of his death in the bible, either.

    The JWs make a big deal about the scripture that says the 'wages of sin is death'. 'Inherited from Adam' - etc. But they skirt around small things like a pre-armageddon resurrection by none other than Jesus.


    actually, thinking about this... it is more like the movie Zardoz, when anyone died, they were re-born and would come back. No one could stay dead.

  • Lore

    I asked the same question. Answer I got was that Lazarus paid for his sins with his death. But since Jesus hadn't died yet if Lazarus sinned again then he would become imperfect again. So Lazarus must have sinned after being ressurected and before Jesus died.

    Which just sounds like a stupid loophole Gods lawyers came up with after the fact.

    But even so. What about the kid who fell out the window and died after Jesus death? He should have been ressurected perfect, and then any further sins would be covered by the ransom!

  • Disillusioned Lost-Lamb
    Disillusioned Lost-Lamb

    NO, NO, NO!

    I'll save you all hours and hours of research, debate and frustration.

    Here goes, the bible is full of shit!

    See it's that easy.

    So, unless you have some sort of fecal fetish, I suggest you move on.

    But good point though, it just helps solidify my above assertion.

  • criticalwitness

    yes logical answers to me dont add up to what gb publishes, to the comment no scripture says he dies i give you that but are we to believe everyone in the bible whos death isnt mentioned is still walking amongst us? and i thought about the dieing before jesus but like as mentioned what about the boy falling out the window who paul ressr? and how does one just pass out the ability to bring another human back to life? prehapes the same way we pass on the ability to give life when we have kids ? but where was josephus? what non biblical source documented this coming back to life? i mean thats a big deal? why did jesus crie when he knew he would bring him back or knew was just sleeping just sympathy with family as wchtwr says? and on what basis where all these ppl in bbl brought back to life before christ death? see i think lik paul argued in bible if there is no ressurection things fall apart

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