Nicely post Shawn
300 Mormons March in Utah Gay Pride Parade, Implications for Closet Jehovah's Witnesses
by Scott77 48 Replies latest social current
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Scott77
Oh, and by the way, thank your lucky stars that the WTBTS does not allow gay people - they're a frigging high control group, they're doing you a favour! Oh, and by the way, thank your lucky stars that the WTBTS does not allow gay people - they're a frigging high control group, they're doing you a favour! shamus100 Br. shamus100 is one of my favorite poster here due to his sharp command and presentation of Watchtower issues in a humorous ways. I hate to disagree with him except on this hot topic. I think, the Watchtower organisation does allow homosexual practices among its members in Bethels on unwriten condition that one has to be a closet Gay. If not, why did they not immediately disfellowship two GB members Chitty and Greenlees who were closet Gays? Please, see an old thread below on these infamous closet Gay Governing Board members of Jehovah's Witnesses.
Scott77
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Bubblegum Apotheosis
I thought the LDS church excomunicated practicing homosexuals? When did this change for the Mormons? Mormons should be allowed to choose who they want in their membership, others can start a new religion if they don't like what the Mormons offer.
Why do people who want the most understanding, refuse to pass the same understanding down the road? We live in strange times, when people are to afraid to stand up for what they believe in, or fearful their views might upset another persons view.
One area I am impressed with Mormons is their view of the family, they do their best to draw their community together, keep families strong and create events the whole local church can attend. A good education is one of the goals the Mormon Church hopes all their young ones will obtain. The Mormon Church does not fear a college education, most of the mormons I know, have advanced degrees in physical sciences!
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Qcmbr
It does.
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steve2
Hostility between groups on political and religious issues often boils down to one immutable factor:
People whose rights and 'protections' are enshrined in law - or "Holy Scripture" - are more prone to neither comprehending nor caring about the plight of other people who do not have the same rights and protections. It's a patronizingly rigid deficit in empathy or fellow-feeling.
The catch-cry of those whose rights and protections are enshrined in law has long been some variation on, "Hey, we treat you better than you were treated in the past. So stop protesting and just be grateful". Well, yes, you do treat me relatively better, I suppose, but you prevent me from having what you have by right. That may not matter to you, but it matters to me.
In this regard, sexual orientation is simply one of many traits that attract differential treatment by the law. Color of skin and gender have been other mainstays of societal discrimination. If you're white, why worry about how others are discriminated against? If you're a white male, why worry about female oppression?
We too easily forget that in the so-called "good old days" when there was much less emphasis on "political correctness", those in power tried to keep all manner of "misfits" and so-called "deviants" oppressed. Ironically, groups such as the JWs were at one time among the most oppressed in Western countries. Think about the outright persecution the JWs suffered during World War 2 in both North America and Germany, among other countries.
Nowadays, JWs are more likely to be viewed in a more "accepting" light by society at large. However, within the ranks of the witnesses there is a sharp inclination to deny their own born-ins who are "different" (e.g.,gay or transgendered) the same rights and protections accorded to others (e.g., heterosexuals).
I'm not suggesting the Watchtower should change its policy - although that wouldn't be a bad thing. To follow on from Shamus's excellent framing of the issue, why would any self-respecting individual want to be a part of a group that automatically treats him or her as "less equal" than any other member of that group?
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Quendi
I've always appreciated the comments steve2 shares in this forum, and this one is among his best. I have also said that LGBT people should get out of the WTS organization because there is no place for them. They are regarded at best as second-class Christians whose rights must and should be abridged. That will never change because they are involved with a fundamentalist sect, and such groups by their very nature are rigid and uncompromising. It is not only LGBT people who are marginalized; women, youth and the elderly also have clearly assigned roles from which no deviance is allowed.
Because the WTS requires LGBT people to deny their true nature and so lose any self-respect they have a right to possess, they should leave and not cast a backward glance. It can be just as difficult for them to do this as for anyone else leaving this religion for other reasons. It was very hard for me, as I left behind more than a few people who genuinely loved me and whom I will likely never see or speak to again. But the price for remaining was simply too high. It would have cost me my soul and as Christ said so pointedly, gaining the whole world is not worth the loss of one's soul.
I was glad to read yada yada 2's hate-filled harangue because it only confirmed that my decision to leave the WTS was the right one. His position--held by many others in the organization--perfectly reflected what steve2 talked about above: a complete lack of empathy for and understanding of others as well as an abhorrent lack of love for those who are decidedly "different". Very well. It may be easier for him to feed hungry children than to extend humanity to another person whose desire for love and acceptance is much more challenging to fulfill. That is his choice, and also his loss for it is possible to do both.
As for the WTS, it has walked down the same ruinous path that other persecuted fundamentalists have tread. The Puritans, also known as the Pilgrims, fled England to found a "New Jerusalem" in America. After surviving the rigors of a New England winter, they went from being pious, God-fearing settlers to hate-filled, intolerant persecutors of others. The colonies of Connecticut and Rhode Island were founded by those who had had enough of Puritan tyranny and broke away to enjoy a freer society.
It was likewise with the Latter Day Saints, the Mormons, who, driven out of New York state and then Illinois, settled in the empty lands around the Great Salt Lake to build their own theocracy. They too faced a test from natural forces that threatened to destroy them, but having survived that turned from being humble colonists to vicious oppressors of any and all who did not practice their religion. We now see the WTS repeating this sad history within the bounds of its so-called "spiritual paradise", the only difference being the WTS does not have the power to inflict corporal and capitol punishment on those it considers deviant.
I am a firm believer that eventually "as ye sow, so shall ye reap". The Puritans eventually were driven from power and the religious order they sought to impose on others was secularized, much to their dismay. The Mormons have been corralled in the American West and though their power is still strong in states like Idaho, Nevada and Utah, they are outside the mainstream of Amerian life, Mitt Romney's candidacy for the American presidency notwithstanding. And the Salt Lake City gay pride march demonstrates that people are chafing under Mormonism and are mounting grass roots challenges to it even in the heart of its realm. I strongly believe the WTS will suffer a similar fall from grace. It has sown the wind of intolerance and will eventually reap the whirlwind of rejection and irrelevancy. I only hope that I am around to see it, and that I can then extend the hand of love and friendship to those survivors who will be in great need of it.
Quendi
P.S.
Sorry about the length of this post, but this is a subject I have strong feelings about.
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compound complex
The eloquence of both Steve and Quendi, coupled with their intelligence and restraint, adds luster to the compelling points they argue.
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Quendi
Thanks for your kind words, CoCo. Steve2, you have a PM.
Quendi
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steve2
Steve2, you have a PM.
I've just noticed this Quendi. I am away from home at present and have difficulties accessing pms on this site on other computers for some reason. I keep getting a "runtime error" message when I try to access them. I'll access your message when I'm back home. (Do others have trouble accessing the pms on this site?)
I appreciate the good points you made in your earlier post. Yes, the persecuted groups often end up over time persecuting others, which is why the Puritans "progressed" from one of the most persecuted groups to pretty fine persecutors in their own right!
Co-co thanks for your words too.
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shamus100
Bump, LOL.