Golly! Killed another thread, lol.
Me and my virtual father
by cedars 27 Replies latest members private
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cantleave
To DA or not DA that is the question......
Well you know my thoughts on this. Severing ties with the org was the best thing for us. But the difference for us is that we want to free our kids from the JW restraints. If we didn't have kids, we would have continued to play the the game - at least I think we would have.
It's your decision! Whatever you do, you know you will have our support - for whatever that's worth!
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nugget
We all hope our family will be different and we all hope that the past counts for something. Unfortunately the cult works at a very deep level reprogramming those we love so that when we threaten their viewpoint or appear to step out of line then the response is already there waiting to be triggered. The witness does not need to think, procress or even listen to the information they only need to select the correct response and go with it. Coupled with cognitive dissonance and it is an explosive mix. Once the cat is out of the bag it is difficult to go backwards.
Give your Dad some space he has had a lot to process. If he has never had doubts of his own he will not understand or appreciate what you are thinking or saying. Perhaps if you do get a chance to talk to him again ask him if he had ever had any concerns and how he coped with them? This will take the sting out of things and put him into the familiar and comfortable role.
Whether to DA or not is a tricky one if your wife supports you then you are very lucky and the organisation can not take that from you. However as things stand you are moving towards the decision being taken from you and really it is probably only a matter of time. So are you happy to let nature take it's course or would you prefer to exit early?
I wish you all the best it does get better.
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Phizzy
Dear Cedars, I really feel for you, I have been through the same experience, it is so hard when a parent says, as mine did a short while ago, "I would rather not see you or talk to you". I am not DF'd or DA'd but was too outspoken about the WT as you started to be in your conversation.
I let some time pass, and then took up where I had left off, as though the above had not been said. Things have been "O.K" , but of course I only talk of the mundane, no religion or similar.
As Chris says above, that is as good as it gets. I hope you are able to restore your relationship with Dad to some degree, and I hope there becomes a peace between you, it would be best for both of you.
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Fernando
Hey Cedars!
Crazy stuff indeed.
The worst of it is that we humans don't fully comprehend the sheer scale of what religion has done to us all.
They have a lot to answer for, and I believe their days are numbered.
1517 gave society "freedom of religion" (which religious leaders appropriate for themselves and in turn deny their followers).
Will 2017, being 500 years later, finally yield "freedom from religion"?
Hang in there mate, you'll bounce back strong, I know.
Greetings and best wishes
Fernando
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Morbidzbaby
I can really relate to this. I've tried having open conversations with my parents about how I feel about things. They simply throw up their mental roadblocks and shut down. I try my best not to give them anything that could be misconstrued as a reason for them to hope I'll come back. I also know what you mean about the JW's being all that they have left. My mom has been one for a very VERY long time. My dad is a more recent convert, but he's still been in for over 10 years. My mom knows nothing else. If she were to ever accept that she's been lied to for all this time, it would unravel her completely. She isn't mentally or emotionally strong enough to handle it. If my dad accepted that it's all bogus and left, that would destroy her as well. So what does one do?
Nothing. Absolutely nothing. Letting things take their course will, in the long and short run, hurt me because it takes my parents away from me completely. But I would rather them ignore me and pretend that I am dead...than to have my mother lose her ever-loving mind because she finds out her whole life and what supposedly comes after it is all a lie...or worse, for her to lose it and leave my father if he were to wake up. They are happy in their ignorance, apparently. If they can be happy in that, then I can be happy to step away and let them have it.
As for DA'ing, it's a huge decision even if it doesn't seem like it so much anymore. You know your dad will completely shun you...how will that affect things in the future when it comes to his health and other important matters that you as his son should be aware of and take part in making decisions about? There's a lot to think about. Perhaps you not DA'ing is the only thing keeping him from shunning you...meaning that no matter what you THINK and FEEL about the organization, maybe he uses the excuse that you're still technically a JW to keep talking to you. You just never can really know what they think or feel about anything because the TRUE self isn't allowed to think and feel. Give it some time for the situation to cool down and then revisit how you feel. He might just be able to ignore the conversation you had and resume his semi-relationship with you...even if he has to pretend that you might one day come back.
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cedars
Wow, there's loads for me to chew over there - all of it helpful. Some "stand-out" comments...
Don’t think you’re alone. You’re not. And, don’t think it’s a Watchtower thing. It’s not. It’s a societal thing that’s been around as long as there’s been human society. Personal expectations are rooted in so many diverse notions and sentiments that it’s a very individual experience/perspective. In your particular instance Watchtower-ology might be at the root. But there’s plenty more non-Watchtower issues that cause lots and lots of dysfunction betwixt family members all over the world.
Thanks Marvin, I would agree with this. "Great expectations" over a variety of issues can cause deep rifts in families. One person being in a cult and the other not is just one to add to the list, I suppose. Learning to enjoy relationships irrespective of differences is a useful skill to develop, although it's a fairly bilateral thing in this context. Food for thought.
And sometimes too we expect too much from parents, long after the time when they had their day and they were who we are now. I stayed friends with my dad, and cooked him lunch when he came to visit; and one evening the police rang me to say he was dead- died of a heart attack while mowing the lawn. And that’s life.
So just chill out and love your dad for who he is… or isn’t… and don’t expect too much- everything changes.
Thanks Peter, similar thoughts to those expressed above by Marvin. You work with what you have.
Whatever you do, you know you will have our support - for whatever that's worth!
Thanks cantleave, that's ALWAYS comforting to know. I know I'm among friends here, which is why I posted in the first place. Nice to have it reaffirmed.
Give your Dad some space he has had a lot to process. If he has never had doubts of his own he will not understand or appreciate what you are thinking or saying. Perhaps if you do get a chance to talk to him again ask him if he had ever had any concerns and how he coped with them? This will take the sting out of things and put him into the familiar and comfortable role.
Whether to DA or not is a tricky one if your wife supports you then you are very lucky and the organisation can not take that from you. However as things stand you are moving towards the decision being taken from you and really it is probably only a matter of time. So are you happy to let nature take it's course or would you prefer to exit early?
Thanks nugget. I think I will sit on this for a week or so and see what happens. I doubt Dad will raise it next time I talk - he will probably just want to pretend it never happened. However, at least I've finally told it like it is, so hopefully his expectations of me have been readjusted, as indeed have mine of him. I'm in no rush with the DA thing. So long as nobody puts me under any pressure, I'm happy to bob along in the current fashion, at least until my book is finished. Then I can see if there's any interest from publishers etc, and brace myself for what happens after that. It's all in my hands really. As you say, getting disassociated is really only a matter of time, but I'm in no rush.
I have been through the same experience, it is so hard when a parent says, as mine did a short while ago, "I would rather not see you or talk to you".
Thanks Phizzy - it's hard enough when a parent says this hypothetically, as my Dad has. I can only imagine how hard it is for those ACTUALLY being shunned by their parents. It's all so unnatural, but that's just the way things are. Hopefully I've got it across to Dad that he's the only one I'm really bothered about losing. All the rest are either pre-emptively shunning me already, or are otherwise "expendable" emotionally. Any potential shunning on his part would be solely punitive, and not therapeutic. Hopefully he at least understands this now.
Hang in there mate, you'll bounce back strong, I know.
Thanks Fernando - like you say, hopefully one day shunning as we know it will be a thing of the past. We can only hope.
Give it some time for the situation to cool down and then revisit how you feel. He might just be able to ignore the conversation you had and resume his semi-relationship with you...even if he has to pretend that you might one day come back.
Thanks Morbidzbaby. I think this is a very likely outcome. However, as painful as it is for him, I really hope he can bring himself to have a relationship with me WITHOUT harboring hopes that I will return, because I made it crystal clear to him that I won't. It's simply not healthy for him to pretend otherwise.
Cedars
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00DAD
Cedars: If you can't have an honest and candid relationship with your father, then what's the point in having one at all?
I totally understand what you're feeling. My relationships with my father and my two sons really have been challenging. You may find it interesting to know that my sons are both "Born-in" JWs. One completely shuns me, the other and I have a limited relationship that is gradually improving but is completely on the sly because he is still stuck in the organization and trying to figure things out. He's only 18 but he knows where I stand in regards to the WTBTS being completely dishonest.
On the other hand, my father was never a JW. Yet he is a controlling abusive man. He does and has always felt completely justified in saying anything about anyone's beliefs or actions, but if anyone questions or criticizes him then he goes ballistic. Sound familiar? Maybe that's why I felt comfortable as a JW at first. It was familiar.
At any rate, with my father there is an unwritten, unspoken set of rules regarding what can and what cannot be discussed between us. (He of course has set the rules with a lifetime of manipulative controlling behaviors). As a result we can only have a relationship if it is superficial, often exceedingly so.
Many times over my life my father and I have gone years without speaking (de facto "shunning") because of some "sin" I allegedly committed. Once when I was 19 he hit me because I had not cleaned my room to his standards. My papers were neatly stacked on my desk when he wanted them out of site. This for me was the final straw. When I got up off the floor I hit him as hard as I could square in the jaw. At 19 I was about 135 lbs. My dad was 46 at the time, about 6'1" and around 200 lbs. My "best shot" did little but make him even angrier. But he didn't hit me again. That day I gathered my things, moved out and we didn't talk for years.
Still, I wanted a relationship with my father.
After 30 years I now set the boundaries, but I still maintain contact. Often he does not respond. Many times I've hoped he would change. It seems unlikely, but I realize that my efforts are more and more about ME being the kind of person that I want and need to be and less and less about expecting any reciprocation from dear old dad.
With my sons, even the one that completely shuns me, I do what I can to maintain contact even when there's no response. I'll send a card when I go on vacation, write a letter just to say hello and keep in touch. Send pictures from family get-togethers. What ever I can do to let them know that I care, that I am thinking about them and that I love them and want them in my life even if they don't.
At the very least they cannot say that I didn't try.
Also, I think it's vitally important that at least someone in their lives demonstrates what love without conditions looks like. Let it be you.
00DAD
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compound complex
With my sons, even the one that completely shuns me, I do what I can to maintain contact even when there's no response. I'll send a card when I go on vacation, write a letter just to say hello and keep in touch. Send pictures from family get-togethers. What ever I can do to let them know that I care, that I am thinking about them and that I love them and want them in my life even if they don't.
At the very least they cannot say that I didn't try.
00DAD
Excellent! I know that this works.
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breakfast of champions
CEDARS - I think MARVIN S was dead on - that as unique as our situation feels, it is certainly nothing unique to human society. Actually, you might consider yourself fortunate to have any positive feelings at all for your witness father, to the point you'd rather "protect" him from TTATT. I think the "it is what it is" approach might be best.
As far as my mother, who indoctrinated me into this nonsense, I barely have any relationship at all with her. The infrequent phone calls are filled with awkward silence - and this is a mother "in the truth" who thinks her son is "in the truth." I doubt DAing myself would have any effect on her whatsoever as our relationship is so distant, I might as well be DFd anyway. Ultimately, it's my wife's family who I would miss, and is what holds me back from leaving this crap cold turkey. Best of luck.