People are turning away from Babylon the Great?

by TheStumbler 15 Replies latest watchtower bible

• 

  TheStumbler

  Hello all,

  I was having a casual conversation with a JW family member yesterday and he mentioned some documentary he had recently watched about the Catholic Church and its cover up of the child sexual abuse scandal in Ireland.

  He commented that the Church is losing the political influence and control it once had in Ireland and that the Bible (Revelation) prophesised that before the end, people would turn away from Babylon the Great (false religion).

  I disagreed and said that I saw no evidence that people are turning away from religion on a global level. I pointed out the increasing religiosity in North America, the Catholic Church’s influence in South America and parts of Africa, the 1.5 billion Muslims (who show no signs of tending towards irreligiousness) and the resurgence of religion in former soviet bloc countries since the collapse of Communism. He did not attempt to refute this so we changed the topic.

  This morning I was having another casual conversation with him and he mentioned that when he was talking about ‘Babylon the Great’ yesterday he was referring only to pagan religions such as Catholicism. He asked if I knew what he meant by Pagan religions. I don’t agree with his definition of pagan but I couldn’t be bothered to discuss it.

  Any way, afterwards I thought about it and have sent this email to him:

  Just a little observation from our conversation yesterday. You mentioned that the book of Revelation prophesises that people will turn away from false religion / which it refers to as ‘Babylon the Great’. You seemed to think fulfilment of this prophecy is evidenced by the waning political influence of the Catholic Church in Ireland.

  I agree that the Catholic Church has lost a lot of the political power it once enjoyed in Europe and that it is also true that church attendance in Western Europe has fallen in recent years. However, I do not see any evidence that people are turning away from religion on a global level. If anything it is increasing since developing countries account for the majority of global population growth and developing countries are (because of the strong correlation between poverty, low education and religiosity) overwhelmingly religious.

  I said to you yesterday in our conversation that I did not believe the catholic church’s political influence is declining in places like South America and parts of Africa. I also said religiosity in North America seems to be increasing and also that religion has grown in parts of the world since the fall of Communism. I could have also mentioned that the Middle East is dominated by theocracies and that India, one of the most populous countries in the world, is still a highly religious nation. Religious fundamentalism also seems to be on the increase in Pakistan and other parts of the world.

  In our second conversation you said that Babylon the Great refers only to Pagan based religions - which I take to mean, the Catholic Church. I was curious about this so looked it up on Watchtower’s website:

  ‘Babylon the Great clearly represents the world empire of false religion, which includes all religions that stand in opposition to Jehovah God’.

  http://www.watchtower.org/e/bh/appendix_12.htm

  From a Jehovah’s Witnesses’ perspective, aren’t all religions, other than the Watchtower, in opposition to Jehovah God? Could you name any religion that does not stand in opposition to Jehovah God, other than the Watchtower?

  If Babylon the Great represents all false religion then what evidence is there that people are turning away from ‘Babylon the Great’ en masse?
• 

  TheStumbler

  I have also wrote a short critique of the Watchtower’s article on ‘Babylon the Great’ found on its website: http://www.watchtower.org/e/bh/appendix_12.htm

  I opted not to send because I am not not really biblically literate so any mistakes would just undermine my argument. But I thought I'd post it here any way.

  Watchtower article words are in italics:

  The book of Revelation contains expressions that are not to be understood literally. (Revelation 1:1) For example, it mentions a woman with the name “Babylon the Great” written on her forehead. This woman is said to be sitting on “crowds and nations.” (Revelation 17:1, 5, 15) Since no literal woman could do this, Babylon the Great must be symbolic. So, what does this symbolic harlot represent?

  It is possible that woman referred to is a literal person but that ‘sitting on ‘the crowds and nations’ is symbolic or metaphorical. Why is this possibility not discussed even if just to dismis the idea.

  At Revelation 17:18, the same figurative woman is described as “the great city that has a kingdom over the kings of the earth.” The term “city” indicates an organized group of people. Since this “great city” has control over “the kings of the earth,” the woman named Babylon the Great must be an influential organization that is international in scope. It can rightly be called a world empire. What kind of empire? A religious one. Notice how some related passages in the book of Revelation lead us to this conclusion.

  I agree that it could refer to a 'world empire' but I don’t agree it must necessarily be religious in nature.

  An empire can be political, commercial, or religious. The woman named Babylon the Great is not a political empire because God’s Word states that “the kings of the earth,” or the political elements of this world, “committed fornication” with her. Her fornication refers to the alliances she has made with the rulers of this earth and explains why she is called “the great harlot.”—Revelation 17:1, 2; James 4:4.

  Why do political alliances preclude an empire from being political in nature? – The British Empire had many political alliances and was political in nature.

  Babylon the Great cannot be a commercial empire because the “merchants of the earth,” representing the commercial elements, will be mourning her at the time of her destruction.

  Why does the fact that ‘merchants of the earth’ will mourn the fall of an empire mean that the empire is not a commercial empire? This is a non sequitur which means the conclusion does not follow from the evidence.

  In fact, merchants would be more likely to mourn the loss of ‘commercial empire’ because it would have a greater financial impact on them rather than the fall of a religious empire.

  In fact, both kings and merchants are described as looking at Babylon the Great from “a distance.” (Revelation 18:3, 9, 10, 15-17) Therefore, it is reasonable to conclude that Babylon the Great is, not a political or a commercial empire, but a religious one.

  The Watchtower assumes that ‘distance’ is used metaphorically. Perhaps ‘distance’ is meant more literally and refers to geographical distance from the location of the author. Again, this possibility is not discussed even if only to explain why it is not valid.

  This all just demonstrates that the Book of Revelation is so vague that it can be interpreted (some parts literally, some parts metaphorically, other parts symbolically) to fitalmost any preconceived belief one prefers.

  I could just as easily interpret Revelation so that ‘Babylon the Great’ represents the USA:

  • It is an empire (politically, economically, and militarily) Revelation 17:18
  • It could one day have female leader (perhaps Hillary Clinton) and because of its economic and military dominance of global politics it could be described as sitting on ‘crowds and nations’ (Revelation 17:1, 5, 15)
  • It has political alliances and the ‘kings of the earth’ have ‘committed fornication with her’ in the form of NATO, NAFTA and military interventions - Revelation 17:1, 2; James 4:4.
  • Its destruction would lead to global financial collapse and the ‘merchants of the earth’ [China perhaps] would mourn its loss (Revelation 18:3, 9, 10, 15-17)
  • It is geographically remote and would have been considered by the author of Revelation to be ‘distant’ from other parts of the world (Revelation 18:3, 9, 10, 15-17)
  • It is dominated by Christendom and believes it is divinely favoured as a nation so it could be said to have ‘spiritisic practices’ (Revelation 18:23)
  • It imprisoned Joseph Rutherford and other members of the Watchtower's leadership in 1918 so it has persecuted “prophets” and “holy ones.” (Revelation 18:24)

  True, the USA does not violently persecute and murder ‘Witnesses of Jesus’ but then, neither does the Catholic Church – evidently this part of the prophecy is yet to be fulfilled.

  Of course, you will say – you just arbitrarily interpreted Revelation post hoc to fit a preconceived idea. And, indeed that is exactly what I have done. But, what makes the Watchtower’s interpretation any more legitimate than mine since they both fit the biblical text equally well?

  The article then finishes off by saying that

  ‘Babylon the Great clearly represents the world empire of false religion, which includes all religions that stand in opposition to Jehovah God’.

  But not all religions that oppose Jehovah are world wide empires with political alliances, that merchants would mourne the loss off and which actively persecutes Jehovah's Witnesses. The Watchtower’s conclusion does not even fit the argument it has constructed.

  When you see how easily I can deconstruct an article like this, do you still dismiss my criticisms because I don’t have the right ‘heart condition’?
• 

  irondork

  En masse? Perhaps not.

  I wonder if the drop off in growth we are observing with the JW numbers parallel what other religions are seeing. Perhaps they are ahead or behind the curve. Perhaps some of them are seeing negative growth, but the numbers still could not be accurately described as anything other than a trickle, hardly "en masse".

  I sense a shift in attitudes against religion in general. People are disillusioned by it - and I live in the southern U.S., bible belt country. But come Sunday, those church parking lots are full. In some cases the mega-churches around here cause such a road jam they bring in a couple of patrol cars to monitor traffic.

  I don't suppose we are able to confirm or dismiss bible prophesy based on a snapshot of my neighborhood, huh?
• 

  wantingtruth

  Hello friend,

  I invite you to search an article related with yours

  here it is

  wantingtruth
• 

  TheStumbler

  Exactly, you can't use anecdotal evidence and extrapolate it across the global to support the (preconceived) conclusion the people are turning away from religion.

  Yes, religion is on the decline in some areas.

  I don't have any figures, but I suspect religiousity is a increasing on a global level because developing countries account for the majority of the world's population growth and developing countries tend to have more religious/superstitious populations.

  Either way, the burden of proof lies with the Watchtower becase it is the Watcthower that is making the positive assertion that people are turning away from religion around the globe. I don't see any strong evidence to support that.

  I am open minded though and always open to being wrong.
• 

  TheStumbler

  sorry, my typos are terrible. I really should take the time to read what I'm about to post before hitting the 'submit' button
• 

  bigmouth

  According to a fairly recent report on religiosity in the USA, the trend is gently moving away from religious affiliation and belief in the traditional Christian way. The article looks at those born since 1980.

  Compared with their elders today, young people are much less likely to affiliate with any religious tradition or to identify themselves as part of a Christian denomination. Fully one-in-four adults under age 30 (25%) are unaffiliated, describing their religion as "atheist," "agnostic" or "nothing in particular." This compares with less than one-fifth of people in their 30s (19%), 15% of those in their 40s, 14% of those in their 50s and 10% or less among those 60 and older. About two-thirds of young people (68%) say they are members of a Christian denomination and 43% describe themselves as Protestants, compared with 81% of adults ages 30 and older who associate with Christian faiths and 53% who are Protestants.

  From the 20010 report 'Religion Among the Millenials' by the Pew Forum.

  If you weren't aware, the Pew Forum is the last word on neutral reporting of anything relating to world religion. A fascinating resource.
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  breakfast of champions

  Watchtowers numbers are pretty representative of religious growth/decline: decline or 0%-1% growth in Europe and developed countries, and 3-4% growth in developing areas i.e. South America and Africa. Amazing how Jehovah's spirit is subject to statistics.
• 

  TheStumbler

  Well, I'm actually glad to be wrong on this one.

  Still sucks a bit tha I'll have to email my family member correcting my previous email.

  Funnily enough, I never receive any retractions or corrections from him which makes me all the more determined to be as intellectually honest as I can be in our discussions.

  Perhaps fundamentalists are a shrinking but increasingly vocal group in the USA and hence my perception that religiosty was on the rise in America.

  Interesting that religious fundamentalists are actually declining as a group (if not in political influence) over there.
• 

  TheStumbler

  Although looking at those figures, they does not seem to differentiate between fundamentalist and evangelical Christians and more moderate cultural Chrisitans. It is possible that fundamentalist/evangelicals are increasing in numbers but this is offset by the greater reductions in more moderate Christians.

  I am just speculating though.

  Reminds me of a conversatin I had once with some friends. They all identified themselves as Christian apart from one insisted he was not Christian but Catholic.