Thinking about disassociating yourself - STOP!...at least for a moment

by rory-ks 46 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  RayPublisher

  Moshe - Some fade so that they will not compel other brothers and sisters to follow the unscriptural practice of extreme shunning. Some do it for their own mental health, and feel it is the best path for them. Your theory about fading has some merit, and makes sense for many though.

  But using the words "Being a wimpy fader" tells us a lot about you Mr. Moshe.

  If you think fading is bad, fine. But calling names and labeling a person that fades as a coward isn't helping, it's only piling on more guilt and shame...sorta like what the WT does huh?

  I'm curious:

  Will you apologize for your comment, or will you just be "wimpy"? Or perhaps you will lash out at me and take your revenge in that way. If it will make you feel better, slap away.
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  LostGeneration

  I used to think that those who DA'd were the ones with the most courage, balls of steel so to speak. In some cases, I still feel that way. If you can go out with a bang and tell off the WT, more power to you. The only thing I would say is send your letter to everyone in the world that is NOT an elder. Tell your story to the ones who don't have the info about the WTS yet. Most will ignore it, but if even one or two do read your letter, it will likely sit there and fester for years. Maybe you will set someone free.

  But it is playing by their rules, and it is unscriptural as well, strong points against a DA.

  After reading the board for a few years, it seems the slow fade is pretty much the worst way to go. You have to deal with endless problems from family, elders, etc. It seems far better to arrange your affairs as best as possible, then simply disappear from all KH activities quickly. Put yourself and everyone else out of their misery, don't string it out! Combining it with a move of halls and/or residence helps out if you really want to muddy the waters for the elders. Take the strong stance that your life is nobody's business but your own, answer no questions, refuse all univited visitors. You may or may not be bothered, but its worth a shot if you want to maintain some family ties.

  In reality, its the Watchtowers game, they make the rules, change the rules, and don't have to play by the rules.
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  Chariklo

  Nearly all of us ID ourselves as apostate by throwing our toys out of the cot when we first work out we've been scammed. That is what the WT wants us to do. Play by their rules, and they win.

  But, Black Sheep, surely by even thinking in terms of apostate or not one is actually playing by their rules. What is apostasy? When it comes down to it, it is just not playing by their rules.

  They are wrong. The whole thing is a house of cards. By living within it even in a mild passive non-attending way, surely one is helping to prop it up.

  Walking away is bound to be painful, but the sharp pain of a clean cut is far healthier than a long drawn out slow and gradual detachment.

  OK, you can point to my different level of experience, and I am not underestimating the hurt and difficulties that are experienced by those entrenched and bound around with the family network, but I have much life experience too and always, always, I've found Moshe's point of view to be the best in the long run.

  Always go for the clean break and know that although a period of intense shock and pain will almost certainly ensue, the recovery thereafter will be the better for it.

  "God's true organisation" as Moshe puts it, is nothing but a sham. A sham and a scam, entrapping those ensnared and holding them by threats, just as corrupt as a company of scamming loan sharks.
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  ziddina

  "I'm curious:

  Will you apologize for your comment, or will you just be "wimpy"? Or perhaps you will lash out at me and take your revenge in that way. If it will make you feel better, slap away. ..." Ray Publisher above, regarding Moshe's comments on page 1

  Ray, if I may butt in??

  Moshe has always taken an extremely hard line on disassociating versus fading. I've never seen him yield on his position.

  Now, I like Moshe. I like his sense of humor, I like the mischevious ideas he comes up with to dissuade intrusive elders and nosy rank&file Witnesses who are trying to snoop where they have no business...

  Having said that, I sincerely wish and hope that Moshe eventually develops more empathy and understanding of those who 'fade' - and as Scott77 said on page 1, those of us here on this board owe a LOT to the "undercover" brothers and sisters who are "fading", who can tell us the latest versions of the devious tactics and desperate attempts at "damage control" by the Watchtower Corporation.

  Without such people, we would be sadly in the dark about so MANY things - the elders' books, the Watchtower Corporation's latest techniques for raising money from the "faithful", the lowered requirements for field service and pioneering, and so many other aspects of "insider" information that one cannot pick up by reading banal comments by "faithful" Jehovah's Witnesses who are posting - against "Mother's" orders - on Facebook...

  Moshe, if you're reading this - I admire you greatly, but your determined attitude that everyone should just disassociate immediately, without any concerns over the repercussions, is terribly short-sighted.

  I understand that a mass exodus WOULD catch the attention of the Watchtower leaders, but unfortunately it probably WON'T bring about any changes - the mass exodus of ex-members that occurred when Rutherford bullied his way to the top of the International Bible Students DIDN'T CHANGE the organization; the mass exodus that occurred after 1975 failed miserably DIDN'T CHANGE the organization, and any mini-mass exoduses which may have occurred after the bizarre "overlapping generations" noo lite came out, still have NOT caused the organization to change.

  And if everyone DID fall onto their swords, so to speak, disassociated themselves and then found that they were totally cut off from still-believing family members, how on earth are they to be successful in getting their other family members out?

  I've always said that, for most people, the 'fade' IS the way to go. I had the luxury of being able to disassociate because I had vicious, destructive, poisonous JW parents with whom I most definitely did NOT want to have to communicate - and therefore a letter of disassociation was the obvious and logical solution.

  But for people who may have had loving families, or worse yet, have children still in the cult, the 'fade' - along with an active deprogramming agenda - is the only valid way to go.

  Zid
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  redvip2000

  Evidently this is not a "right" or "wrong" answer. There are pros and cons of taking a position of disassociating yourself. It is true that for most, the decision not to, is mainly done to avod conflict, pain, and separation - and this is a fine reason. It is true in my case as well. I haven't been to the meetings in over 7 years - except for the occasional memorial due to friends invitations, but i choose to be a fader because i don't want some of the friends i still have not to be forced to stop talking to me. I also share the opinion that you can do more good and have more influence being a fader since you are not blocked access to having insightful conversations with the ones that are still in.

  The flip side of the argument is that if we all took a stand and officially DAed ourselves, the Org would have some sort of metric on how many people are "really" leaving, and although the number would not be disclosed, it would have an impact ( i think) in the "in the know" strata of the Watchtower society. But the bottom line is that for some taking the official might be the best option, especially if you have no ties with the Org.
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  RayPublisher

  Thanks Ziddina for your kind words.
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  cedars

  I'd have to back up Ziddina's words on this issue. Unfortunately, there is no "one size fits all" solution when it comes to leaving the organization. Everyone has varying circumstances, and we must all do what we each think is right having weighed the variables carefully.

  Cedars
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  Bubblegum Apotheosis

  You got balls Ray Publisher!

  We all come from different backgrounds, but we all have this religion as our commonality. How each person carries his affairs, is his own business, annominity is good, no need to broadcast your intentions to unsavory, blinded and conditionally loyal men. This area needs a tactful approach, lurkers abound here at JWN, who are not ready to "out" themselves, so men can pigeon hole them into group Good or group Apostate, once you are labled apostate, good luck at trying to reach your loved ones.

  The ability to raise people's thinking powers, are better done by someone they trust, can relate to, and care about. You have a whole territory of men and women, who are more willing to listen to a "brother" as opposed to allowing the Org wipe your name off their list of life! Keep your annominity, when the time is correct, you will know what to do. Not all of us had the perfect storm affect, Dogpatch experienced, he was single, saw ugly things at the very top. Do keep up the good work Ray!
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  moshe

  but your determined attitude that everyone should just disassociate immediately, without any concerns over the repercussions, is terribly short-sighted.

  Pain avoidance does not always equal a successful plan for life. I have yet to see any solid proof that being a doormat for JWs has better long term results than telling everyone- take this religion and shove it. If you have just your nuclear family to get out, then maybe you can pull it off in a year or two of fading and gentle WT expose'.. But for newly enlightened JWs with lots of relatives, there is no way you will get out mom and dad, brothers sisters, aunts uncles, nieces, nephews, grandparents, friends, etc.. Go get some good happy pills from the doctor and stay in, if you can't bear the thought of getting shunned and going it alone. Look at Gumby. He was one of us for quite awhile and then he decided to get back into the good graces of the KH and keep his family. Well and good, except these kids could well decide to be solid JWs as adults and he will have to keep up the charade for life or lose contact with his kids and grandchildren. Suppose one of these kids later decide to quit the KH or gets DF'd. What to do then? Shun them and keep your cover intact- or come out of the closet and support the df'd child and risk getting df'd yourself? You see, the fading game is fraught with long term pitfalls. Gumby may have made a decision to go back into the KH for life- is that what he planned to do? Be a pretend JW for life? I hope not.

  I wish people had more confidence in themselves and the belief that they will have a better life outside the KH- Taking responsibilty for your life and it's decisions is the opposite for what JWs do- "mother" from NY runs the show at all times for them. My opinion is often at odds with the majority here, but that does not mean it might not be the right one in the long run.
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  LongHairGal

  RORY-KS:

  I agree that disassociating has a high price and this is why I feel sorry for anybody who has family or business connections in the religion. Who wants to fake it or live a lie? Very stressful.

  I am a "fader" and I toyed with the idea of DA but couldn't be bothered with the drama, so I left well-enough alone. At this point in time I no longer care what anybody thinks. In my opinion, those who call faders names have a misery-loves-company anger or a sour grapes tone. I am also sorry for anybody who DA'd and suffered for it!

  This is a personal decision and there is no right or wrong. It is all about what is best for the particular individual and those closest to them.