Discussion with my dad about 607 in a week,,,,help?

by stillstuckcruz 25 Replies latest jw friends

  • Dagney
    Dagney

    What Para said.

    You cannot argue with faith. My personal experience is they will hold on even if the math and history doesn't work. So my tactic is to keep them curious about me, why I was so "in" and now so "out."

    When my PO/COBE brother wanted to have "The Talk" a few years ago I told him that we really couldn't, could we. I told him he could say anything he wants because he is active and "goes to meeting." But me, whatever I say would be analyzed, discussed with others, and when asked about me, "well, she has a problem with 607/GB/time reporting/shunning...bad heart condition, rebellious, doesn't follow counsel" even when most will agree with what you say "off the record." He said, "I never thought of it that way" and did not have a rebuttal.

    So I just tell everyone, "I was raised to search for truth. That hasn't changed."

    Be careful. Good luck.

  • mind blown
    mind blown

    INFO from Freeminds: http://www.freeminds.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2212:607-bce-the-bible-or-the-formula&catid=5:dates-chronology&Itemid=700

    WTS takes a position that the Bible can be used to calculate when Christ would begin ruling. The basis of the formula was developed, not by Charles Taze Russell, but by a man named John Aquila Brown, in the year 1823.

    The Day-For-Year Rule

    The formula relies on Brown’s theory that applies the “day-for-year rule” to the 7-year period of King Nebuchadnezzar’s insanity. There are two instances of this rule in the Bible. One is in Numbers and the other is in Ezekiel. In both instances, the Bible states that the rule is to be applied.[i] The Bible makes no such application in Daniel Chapter 4. It is Brown who applies the rule at Daniel 4. Brown breaks the years down into days and converts those days into years, so that 7 years equals 2,520 days, which, in turn, equal 2,520 years.

    The Daniel 4 – Luke 21 Connection

    Brown connected his 2,520 years of Daniel 4 with the “appointed times of the nations” described by Jesus Luke 21:24.[ii] According to Jesus, the “appointed times” end when he returns in power and glory. Jesus makes no connection between the “appointed times of the nations” and Daniel’s prophecy of Nebuchadnezzar’s insanity. Brown’s connecting Daniel 4 with Luke 21 is his own speculation. This connection is not specified in the Bible. [iii]

    The Erroneous Interpretations of Luke 21, 2 Chronicles 36, Daniel 9 and Jeremiah 25

    The formula holds that the “appointed times of the nations” start with the destruction of the ancient temple and end, 2,520 years later, with the beginning of Christ’s invisible rule in heaven. This idea originated with N.H. Barbour’s commentary and computations in connection with Ezekiel 21:25, 26 in combination with Luke 21:24.[iv]

    Next, the formula attempts to establish when the ancient temple was destroyed for no other reason than to establish a calendar date for the beginning of the 2,520 years. It cites the writings of Ezra and Daniel, who recalled the destruction of the ancient temple as well as the captivity of the Jews in Babylon and the desolations of their homeland.[v] Ezra and Daniel state that these events would play out in fulfillment of Jeremiah’s 70-year prophecy. Jeremiah had prophesied that Babylon would rule for 70 years, during which time the nations would be subject to her king.[vi] Although Ezra, Daniel and Jeremiah were each describing different elements of the same subject, the formula combines these Bible passages to assert that the 70 years began with the destruction of Jerusalem. The land would lay desolate for 70 years until the Jews who were released from captivity in Babylon would once again populate it. The formula then turns to secular history, which establishes that the Jewish captives were released in the year 539 B.C.E. Finally, the formula allows two years for the captives to return to their homeland--in 537 B.C.E. Counting back 70 years from 537 B.C.E. renders the date of 607 B.C.E. for the destruction of the ancient temple, and the start of the 2,520 years. These 2,520 years or “appointed times of the nations” end in 1914 C.E. with the beginning of Christ’s invisible rule in heaven.

    In review :

    1. The formula applies the day-for-year rule to Daniel 4, something the Bible does not do;
    2. The formula connects Daniel 4 to Luke 21, something the Bible does not do; and
    3. The formula defines the 70-year prophecy of Jeremiah as beginning with the destruction of Jerusalem and ending with the repopulating of the Jewish homeland, something Jeremiah does not do.[vii]
    4. In Conclusion

      By asserting that the Bible contains a code that Jehovah’s Witnesses alone have cracked by means of their formula, they foster the impression that they alone are teaching the correct understanding of Bible prophecy. If this were true, the Bible would support their formula. The above demonstrates that it does not. Whereas the Watch Tower Society contends that secular history of the period under consideration is unreliable, it is their formula that is far more prone to error. Nevertheless, the investment of Jehovah’s Witnesses in the formula is so great that they must continue to stand behind the date of 607 B.C.E. In truth, it is not the Bible that Jehovah’s Witnesses rely on for this date; it is their own formula.

      *****************************************************************************************

      FROM A BLOG:

      Sorry, dotori, but your alternative formula is invalid. The leap years were every three, six and eight years, etc. Look it up. Therefore, with the new deficient Jewish formula we reach the year 1945, not the all important year of 1914:

      353 + 353 + 383 + 353 + 353 + 383 + 353 = 2531 - 587 + 1 = 1945

      The addition of one year at the end is because there was no year 0 AD.

      ***************************************************************************************

      JWFACTS has a compelling arguement:

      "Ask him why he trusts historians with their figure for 539, which is the basis for 607, but then cannot trust them that it was only 50 years and not 70 years earlier that Jerusalem was destroyed? And it he doesn't trust them, how does he know 539 is correct?"

      ****************************************************************************************

      stillstuckcuz, don't let your Dad sidetrack you, stick to his exact questions regarding 607 and bible calculations.

      Also, stay away from the big question which is "do you believe or not the WTS is Gods organization"? That's a DF question.

      Just say things don't add up and you're doing your own private reasearch. Don't let him try to trick you with questions not relating to the subject at hand.

      Good Luck

  • Phizzy
    Phizzy

    Dear SSCruz,

    Please let us know how you got on !

  • cantleave
    cantleave

    Good Luck. Keep us informed.

  • Ding
    Ding

    JWs insist on being the teachers, so give your dad an opporunity to show you how he arrives at the 607 B.C.E. date.

    At some point he will have to cite a secular source (history book, encyclopedia, etc.) to connect something in the Bible to its B.C.E. date, because it's not possible to come up with a B.C.E. date for anything by the Bible alone.

    Once he does that, you can point out that he is no longer going strictly by the Bible.

    You then are entitled to bring in outside sources as well.

    Often the very source a JW will use to establish some other date will give 587/586 B.C.E. for the fall of Jerusalem as well.

    Please be aware also that some Bible scholars count 70 years of desolation from 586 B.C.E. until the completion of the second temple in 516 B.C.E.

  • punkofnice
    punkofnice

    Was Jerusalem destroyed in 607 BCE or 587 BCE?

    "There are only 5 Babylonian kings to deal with. It isn't hard. You don't need to bother with VAT 4956, Josephus, Ptolemy, Anstey, Bullinger, etc. etc. Just go by the actual kings, whose names and regnal lengths are known from tens of thousands of cuneiform tablets from many different towns and villages all over southern Mesopotamia. It is so simple a child could do it.

    Starting with Nabonidus, the last Babylonian king, and working backward.

    Babylon falls to Cyrus the Persia -- 539 BCE (Date accepted by WT CD ROM 2001)
    Nabonidus -- 17 years (WT agrees) For long periods he entrusted rule to his son, Prince Belshazzar
    Labashi-Marduk -- 3 months (WT says less than 9 months)
    Neriglissar -- 4 years (WT in agreement)
    Evil-Merodach -- 2 years (WT in agreement
    Nebuchadnezzar -- 43 years (In the 19th year of his reign he destroyed Jerusalem)


    WT 1965 1/1 p. 29 The Rejoicing of the Wicked Is Short-lived

    Evil-merodach reigned two years and was murdered by his brother-in-law Neriglissar, who reigned for four years, which time he spent mainly in building operations. His underage sonLabashi-Marduk, a vicious boy, succeeded him, and was assassinated within nine months. Nabonidus, who had served as governor of Babylon and who had been Nebuchadnezzar’s favorite son-in-law, took the throne and had a fairly glorious reign until Babylon fell in 539 B.C.E.

    Nabonidus -- 17 years

    17 = 539 BCE
    16 = 540
    15 = 541
    14 = 542
    13 = 543
    12 = 544
    11 = 545
    10 = 546
    9 = 547
    8 = 548
    7 = 549
    6 = 550
    5 = 551
    4 = 552
    3 = 553
    2 = 554
    1 = 555
    0 = accession year = 556


    Labashi-Marduk -- less than a year

    3 months in 556


    Neriglissar -- 4 years


    4 = 556
    3 = 557
    2 = 558
    1 = 559
    0 = accession year = 560


    Evil-Merodach -- 2 years


    2 = 560
    1 = 561
    0 = accession year = 562


    Nebuchadnezzar -- 43 years


    43 = 562 BCE
    42 = 563
    41 = 564
    40 = 565
    39 = 566
    38 = 567
    37 = 568
    36 = 569
    35 = 570
    34 = 571
    33 = 572
    32 = 573
    31 = 574
    30 = 575
    29 = 576
    28 = 577
    27 = 578
    26 = 579
    25 = 580
    24 = 581
    23 = 582
    22 = 583
    21 = 584
    20 = 585
    19 = 586 BCE
    18 = 587 BCE

    And in the fifth month, on the seventh day of the month, which is the nineteenth year of king Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, came Nebuzaradan, captain of the guard, a servant of the king of Babylon, unto Jerusalem: And he burnt the house of the LORD, and the king's house, and all the houses of Jerusalem, and every great man's house burnt he with fire. 2Ki 25:8 ,9

    So Jerusalem was destroyed in 586/587 BCE by Nebuchadnezzar.

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