Those on JWN still serving as elders...What if?

by Kensho 103 Replies latest jw friends

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  Miles3

  @EE

  First, thank for posting an answer.

  its such a shame that some are so stupid and short sighted that they only see one way to handle things. their way. I sleep well at night and will continue... and maybe one day I'll take my own advice and stop clicking on these types of threads altogether.

  I didn't feel Kensho was accusing anybody. Clueless, and expressing a difficulty to imagine, but not there to put guilt or whatever. Only by answers from people in your predicament can we understand the circumstances and the reasonning that can make somebody remain as an elder.

  I know that I don't have a clue what's in the head of someone that remains an elder after realising TTATT. That makes me more curious. Even though I now 100% that no reason in the world could make me compromise - the strain on my way of thinking and living would outweight any bad consequences, because I've got a far too low threshold for coping with cognitive dissonance - I'm not blind and see that somebody else would make that choice, and be perfectly right for themselves. Learning their reasonning, the way they solve the cognitive dissonnance is invaluable input about others, and about myself, because we're all fellow humans.

  Asking about it doesn't mean judging the other person. I only judge myself, and I've got no problem saying that I wouldn't respect myself in that situation. Yet I still respect someone else in that situation - everybody has a responsibility towards themselves and their own family. That's what comes first in life.

  For example, I'm really interested to know how people still in for their family deal with seeing their kids growing up subjected to the cult endoctrination and ruinning their own life in the cult. Is it because for a parent there's an advantage in the Watchtower teachings - after all, most parents I know would rather their kids didn't have sex before marriage, smoke or do some of the silly things teenagers do, and the cult make it easier to control their kids? For example, many fall into cults (or go back to the cult they were raised in themselves) when they start having kids, and I'm wondering if it's because it's frightenning to have to decide what to teach your kids in a world without any absolutes one could rely on. Or is it because they feel life as a Witness isn't worse than as a non-Witness, as long as they can ensure their kids go to college and have a good job? I'm sure everyone will have their own reasons, but I'd really like to know some.
• 

  Broken Promises

  By pretending these are all people with autonomy that you have no influence over is just wrong. Everytime you get up and give a talk TEACHING those people falsehood you are continuing the lie. Everytime you dont standup and deny it all being true you allow the lies to live.

  Lets be frank, you could leave. Its hard but it is essentially the right thing to do. The society is NEVER going to become THE tre religion. You may have family etc and feel this is impossible, granted... but do you have to serve as an Elder? Does the pull of being a big fish in a small pond mean so much to you? As an elder you affect peoples lives.

  I really, really dont know how you do it.

  Before you tell me how ignorant I am, I mean no offence, I sincerely dont. I dont pretend to understand everyone's situation. But I really, really dont know how the elders here sleep at night. Be honest is it difficult? Does the conscience not cry out?

  Well said.
• 

  tec

  I got a mention on a thread I didn't even know e x isted into two minutes ago, lol. And no problem at all, Botz, that you gloss over on my posts. We're not all interested in the same things, and it would be silly to e x pect otherwise.

  I don't think being a non-believing elder is that much different than being a non-believing jw. The elders have to pretend to people who look up to them (unless they can find a way around that). The jw's have to pretend to the householders they go out in service to. There are ways to do both and cause little harm if you are stuck in for a while to try and get family out, or just keep contact with family that you know need you. There are also ways to be a hypocrite about both non- believing elder and non-believing door-to-door jw. Such as an elder df-ing someone, or a regular jw bringing someone new into the fold.

  It is hard no matter who you are.

  Peace,

  tammy
• 

  Broken Promises

  Tec,

  You've missed another aspect of the hypocrisy of being an unbelieving elder - that the mere fact that they are an elder, helps keep other JWs enslaved to the WTS.

  Elders are not silent partners - they would have a part in the meetings at least once a week, they have various duties in the KH, they are on committees, they counsel other JWs, and they TAKE THE LEAD IN THE WITNESSING WORK.

  JWs look up to elders for help and confirmation that their faith in the JWs is justified. So even if they don't fully believe in the JW doctrine, a person in the position of elder is still upholding the JW religion. Such hypocrisy is amazing, and I honestly wonder how they sleep at night.

  I left because I knew it wasn't the Truth, and it bothered my conscience to be part of that religion. So it's hard to see others who don't have the same values. And it's hard to respect them as people.

  I could go on, but I'm not going to waste my breath on such hypocrites.
• 

  tec

  JWs look up to elders for help and confirmation that their faith in the JWs is justified. So even if they don't fully believe in the JW doctrine, a person in the position of elder is still upholding the JW religion

  A valid point... but not necessarily hypocrisy. Because maybe they're afraid. Maybe stepping down as an elder would lead to everything coming out about their lack of faith in the organization, and then they would be df'd, lose their families to the WTS... the very thing they're trying to avoid.

  Hypocrisy would be them condemning someone else for the same thing. Or hypocrisy would be putting their vote to df or even just mark someone, instead of speaking up for that person, on the basis of being afraid that it will happen to themselves instead.

  Good on you for leaving as you did. I wish I could say I would do the same because I think it is noble and the most honest way to do it... but I also think that I would probably try to get my spouse and children out, bearing the lie for as long as I could... or until I thought my children were in danger of being hurt by it.

  Peace,

  tammy
• 

  Billy the Ex-Bethelite

  I was still an elder when I joined here, and continued to serve for some time until I was conveniently removed. I can understand S&R's frustration, but let me put a different slant on things.

  "As an elder you affect peoples lives."

  Exactly. And as an elder I would/should find out if there were any issues involving pedophiles and I would make certain the police were called FIRST. That's something an ordinary publisher wouldn't be able to do. That situation actually arose once while I was on the BOE. The "brother" is now a registered pedo. If there were issues involving blood, I would be prepared at that point to "encourage" them to take any and all fractions, or anything needed, even if it ran the risk of me being outted. That actually almost happened with a relative. There have never been any JCs for apostasy where I was an elder. As an elder, about a dozen of the publisher record cards of faders "disappeared". I was able to say some things from the platform that others couldn't. I was able to say some things in elder meetings that others couldn't. After a confidential conversation with me, a CO quit within the next 4 months. That wasn't a coincidence. I don't look back with shame and think that I was a coward.

  "Be honest is it difficult?"

  It was difficult, mostly because it all was such a huge waste of my time. When I was removed as an elder, I wasn't particularly surprised, I suppose. I was becoing an 'outsider' because I was trying to be a good guy instead of a tyrant. I exploited the unjust situation of my removal, as have others, to move toward the exit.

  "Does the conscience not cry out?"

  Mine did to some extent. But I was never the type to ruin people's lives. I tried to make WTland a better place, but I was outnumbered and out-gunned. That was one of the realizations that finally opened my eyes. My conscience doesn't bother me now. I'm a victim too. If anyone thinks that my saying that is a copout, just remember that I didn't recruit you to this cult. And after you enjoy a nice meal and lay down in a comfortable bed, does your conscience cry out and do you lay awake because so any others in the world are poor and hungry? There is no shortage of injustice in the world. I'm not responsible for it all, neither are you. We can't fix it by laying awake at night.

  Personally, I greatly appreciate those here that are still plugging along. From their reports, I know what my family is being brainfed at the meetings, assemblies, conventions, even the letters to the bodies of elders. I can't speak for everyone here, but I'm grateful for stuff like this.
• 

  Doubting Bro

  I used to think that people looked up to elders until I actually became one. Then I realized that if you actually tried to be there for folks, that you'd get steamrolled and treated like a slave.Everything you say or do is gossiped about, nothing is ever good enough. Crazy cat lady single 50 year old pioneer sister who calls in the middle of the night. Psycho 40 year old virgin guy who corners you at the meeting so you can't talk to the more normal people.

  Yes, they have a lot of parts but no one pays any attention to them. I would spend hours trying to put together interesting parts only to realize that I could spent 5 minutes and get the same glazed over look. Maybe I just sucked as a speaker but the apathy with which the average JW lives their lives and approaches their religion is amazing. The religion really does suck the life out of you.

  I also learned that you're nothing but a low level manager in a multi-national publishing corporation. The contempt that the COs/DOs and branch has for the average elder is barely concealed. They treat you like an idiot and constantly talk down to you.

  Bottom line, the only impact that an elder can have on a publisher is the ability to DF them. But, if you're an unbelieving elder, you're going to avoid being on a JC or if you are on one, you'll push for reproof. Easy enough. The rest of the stuff just doesn't really matter. I think you guys are overstating the impact an elder has on folks.

  BUT - the impact that having still serving elders on JWN is probably more positive than negative. Think about all the BOE letters that get leaked, the news that gets broken here. Bethel knows they have loyalty problems with their low level managers and it really pisses them off. They don't know who to trust and I think that undermines the power structure.

  I first came here as an elder and when I saw other elders here, it gave me a sense of not being alone and made me stay. Yes, I eventually stepped down but it was my choice. I probably would have anyway because it's the worst "job" I've ever had. I hated it even before I knew TTATT. That just reinforced to me what I already felt.

  I say that they should be encouraged to continue doing what they can, leaking what they know. The fact is that most posters here know way more about what's going on in the org than the average JW and in my mind that's a good thing.

  Each must follow their own path.
• 

  TheSilence

  Such hypocrisy is amazing, and I honestly wonder how they sleep at night.

  I left because I knew it wasn't the Truth, and it bothered my conscience to be part of that religion. So it's hard to see others who don't have the same values. And it's hard to respect them as people.

  I could go on, but I'm not going to waste my breath on such hypocrites.

  Hypocrisy is a pretty strong word in this instance, I think. They are being forced to choose between two wrong choices. Let's liken it to a fictional situation from Sophie's Choice: A mother is required to decide which of her two children will live and which will be murdered. She knows it is *not right* to be forced into such a situation. She knows that it is *not right* to choose the death of one of her children. Is she a hypocrite to make that choice and keep one alive instead of letting them both be murdered just because she knows it's wrong to be forced to choose? Because she was forced to choose between two wrong things does it make her a hypocrite for choosing the death of one child to save the other, even knowing it was wrong that either child would be murdered?

  Stepping down from elder is not something everyone can just do without tipping their hand. So if that is the case being forced to choose between two wrong things is a hard place to be and we all make decisions for what is right for us in the moment: Pretend to be what you are not and believe what you do not (wrong) or lose all your family and friends, your entire support system (wrong). Being forced to choose between two wrong things is not always black and white. For some of us, yes, there is a black and white answer... but would I have walked away from the religion if I had children I would lose because of it... wow, that sounds wayyyyy harder to me and I can't tell you what my answer would be in that situation. Who am I to judge anyone who has different circumstances than mine? Does the moral platitude of 'always stand for what's right' sound great? Yeah, but life isn't always like that. Which is more wrong, pretending to believe so you can be there for family that needs you, or taking steps that you know will force them to turn their backs despite the fact that they need you? Would you feel like even if it was their choice to shun it still feels like abandoning them because you know going in what will happen?

  How would you feel if I made these statements about you:

  Such judgmentalism is amazing, and I honestly wonder how they sleep at night.

  I don't judge those who make hard decisions because I've never walked in their shoes, and it bothered my conscience to judge people when it wasn't my place to do so. So it's hard to see others who don't have the same values. And it's hard to respect them as people.

  I could go on, but I'm not going to waste my breath on such judgmental people.

  I mean that's a pretty strong statement, don't you think? For simply having a different opinion or viewpoint? For having made different decisions? It's hard to respect them as people??? Wow, that's pretty strong.
• 

  Crisis of Conscience

  @ Billy the X and Doubting Bro -
• 

  mind blown

  Hypocrisy??

  I don't see the difference between any JW going door to door lying and ensnaring the "innocent" masses, while deep down knowing the WTS is full of it (which many of them do), or an unbelieveing elder that's still serving. So you think there's a big differnce between an elder coming here, or the flock? Boy, are you in denial

  I personally feel a wise and awesome unbelieving elder has a lot to offer a congregation. I wish EE would have been one of my elders.

  It seems it's more of an issue for those who are still trying to hang on, still wishing it was the truth! You want to go after and hang someone out to dry? Take your crap out on the Governing Body who are lying to MILLIONS OF THEIR OWN FLOCK AND THE INNOCENT MASSES!