The Two Trees - My Genesis Ponderings

by cedars 190 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • N.drew
    N.drew

    Here is the picture.

    Humans on World (where there are trees for as long as there are people) have the destination of forever. (If you are believing God can ressurrect the dead, how hard is it to believe God can cause the sun to shine forever?). God's will is that people populate the Earth forever. Or to "time indefinite" which is almost forever. Time indefinite means no guarentee I think.

    Humans in love with God will all stay on the path of life forever by virtue of their knowing and loving the Father CREATOR . They could not even see the other ways, many ways, off the way to forever UNTIL THEY DISOBEYED. Their disobeying broke their loyalty to LIFE.

    When they misplaced their loyalty to themselves God had to take away the tree of life because evil prevails. When evil prevails Earth gets ruined.

  • cedars
    cedars

    Fernando - I agree with what you're saying, however there's no clear link between sin=death and the fruit itself. God's threat to Adam and Eve that they would die was carried out, but only because they were denied further access to the Tree of Life. The death of Adam and Eve was therefore a punitive measure taken by God by depriving them of the remedy, i.e. the eternal life granted by the tree of life. It was like denying an asthmatic person his inhaler during an attack (if you'll excuse the morbid analogy).

    Some have said they hadn't yet eaten from the tree of life before they were banished, but I find that hard to believe when reviewing the context of the narrative. Adam and Eve were encouraged to eat from every tree of the garden (including the tree of life) excluding only the tree of knowledge - why would they abstain from it prior to the events leading to their banishment?

    Paul's writings seem to super-impose the concept of inherited sin over the narrative, and imbue the forbidden fruit with some mystical death-dealing properties (not referred to in Genesis) that would transcend generations for which Christ's redeeming blood was required. Yes, God said "in the day you eat from it you will die" but that didn't happen - they died hundreds of years later. And there was nothing in God's warning to suggest that the fruit itself would deliver the deathblow, purely that there would be fatal consequences to the act of disobedience.

    If you take away Paul's letters, that is not what is described in Genesis. What is described is God more-or-less saying "you can't have the best of both worlds", and banishing them from the garden to stop them from becoming godlike, i.e. having both eternal life, and wisdom.

    Cedars

  • Band on the Run
    Band on the Run

    Cedars,

    This is one of the best threads I've read here. Your integrity regarding the actual text is amazing! Perhaps the Bible has stayed so important for so long b/c it is wesaly. We can project our own assumptions onto the text b/c the text is so puzzling. When I reread it recently, I was struck that it was not so heavy and dark. Why is God so worried about knowledge of good and evil.

    I wish L. or someone else with a background in ancient Canannite religions would post regarding any similar legends or stories. A rabbi's take would be very interesting. I've read popular books about the Goddess theology and YHWH being a latecomer. They have found thousands of female gooddesses married to YHWH in Israeli excavations. I am very curious what origin of life story existed before the development of the Bible. Also,the Bible did not become canonized until after Christ. It would be lovely to read how people such as Samuel,Daniel, Ezekiel viewed this fragment.

    As I suffer, I think it is about the nature of human suffering. An explanation of why we are not gods. Why is Jehover so stingy with god attributes. It seems so arbitrary. Suffering is arbitrary. Did anyone truly believe the literal story? It makes no sense to me based on the text. If there was an important theological point, why not make it more clear. I refuse to believe that the YHWH tradition came magically out of nowhere. Altho it is part of the Torah, the Torah had to become the Torah through a process. If we knew more of the culture, perhaps we could place ourselves in the shoes of the author and figure out what they meant. Perhaps it is confusing because there was no agreement.

  • Band on the Run
    Band on the Run

    Cedars,

    This is one of the best threads I've read here. Your integrity regarding the actual text is amazing! Perhaps the Bible has stayed so important for so long b/c it is wesaly. We can project our own assumptions onto the text b/c the text is so puzzling. When I reread it recently, I was struck that it was not so heavy and dark. Why is God so worried about knowledge of good and evil.

    I wish L. or someone else with a background in ancient Canannite religions would post regarding any similar legends or stories. A rabbi's take would be very interesting. I've read popular books about the Goddess theology and YHWH being a latecomer. They have found thousands of female gooddesses married to YHWH in Israeli excavations. I am very curious what origin of life story existed before the development of the Bible. Also,the Bible did not become canonized until after Christ. It would be lovely to read how people such as Samuel,Daniel, Ezekiel viewed this fragment.

    As I suffer, I think it is about the nature of human suffering. An explanation of why we are not gods. Why is Jehover so stingy with god attributes. It seems so arbitrary. Suffering is arbitrary. Did anyone truly believe the literal story? It makes no sense to me based on the text. If there was an important theological point, why not make it more clear. I refuse to believe that the YHWH tradition came magically out of nowhere. Altho it is part of the Torah, the Torah had to become the Torah through a process. If we knew more of the culture, perhaps we could place ourselves in the shoes of the author and figure out what they meant. Perhaps it is confusing because there was no agreement.

  • cedars
    cedars

    N.drew - we've been through this already, there are very definitely two distinct trees in the account with two distinct consequences to the eater. Please check the pages to this thread for where this has been successfully argued!! I'm not going to start copying and pasting it all just because you've forgotten that you're wrong, or can't count!!

    Cedars

  • N.drew
    N.drew

    And in my opinion it ties in nicely to God confused their language because "nothing that they purpose to do will be impossible". In other words "extinction". Why would heaven not say EXTINCTION? Because they DON'T WANT IT. Am I the only one who has applied psychology to it?

    This is how it would work in my imagination. You tell Man that extinction is possible. World then brakes into two camps. The haters (who want it) and the fearers (who don't know what to do about them who want it) who become powerless in their fear.

  • cedars
    cedars

    Band on the Run - yes, that is one of the frustrating things when reading the Genesis account. If this was such an all-important episode in human history that would set the theme for everything that was to follow, including the arrival and sacrifice of God's son, then why the ambiguity and inuendo? Why not spell everything out clearly?

    I think if more people actually sat down and read the first three chapters of Genesis from a completely unbiased perspective, they would read a very different story from the one we were taught as JWs. There is so much embellishment of the story in Christian doctrine, it's untrue. The only way to really make sense of it is to view it as allegorical. Only then do you start to get somewhere. Either way, simply using the narrative itself to explain things in a way that ties in with the rest of the bible (specifically the New Testament and the Pauline letters) doesn't work at all IMHO.

    Cedars

  • N.drew
    N.drew
    I'm not going to start copying and pasting it all just because you've forgotten that you're wrong, or can't count!!

    Ok I'm sorry. It does not matter to me that there are one or two. Did you stop at nothing?

    I am with Tammy on this. It is an illustration of what happened. A picture. We are to understand the meaning of the picture. But it does not have to be recreated. To understand it.

  • N.drew
    N.drew

    Can you imagine the tree layed down is a bridge over dangerous Earth. If it was the The Tree of Life layed down God would be with us all the way. We would not even be aware of the evil that lurks for destruction. We would have faith and confidence.

    Now lay down the tree to walk to the future knowing very well that there are branches apparent that will cause death.

    See how they are the same, but different?

  • cedars
    cedars

    N.drew - I'm glad you're over the "one tree" thing! I notice that you can't begin to explain the account without viewing it as an allegory, which is precisely what I just told Band on the Run. Once you start venturing into the world of allegory, then can be any one of hundreds of explanations.

    My whole point in this thread is to assert that the first three chapters of Genesis can't stand up to close scrutiny without adding elements to the story that aren't recorded. So far, each and every explanation I've received from either you or other interested persons has embellished the story in some way, or offered an explanation that isn't recorded in the text.

    As BOTR just observed, you would think that with such an important portion of text that would set the tone for the whole bible as well as the future of humanity things would be made as clear as crystal. I find it telling that the reverse is true.

    Cedars

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