Atheists..... throwing the baby out with the bath water ?

by snare&racket 403 Replies latest jw friends

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  snare&racket

  This saying permeates this forum with higher frequency than most. Despite being an open atheist amongst lots of religious people in my life, I have never been accused of doing this and I have never heard this saying attributed to my choice... appart from here.

  I thought it would be best to clarify why I (and I assume others) decided to leave the bible behind after leaving the WT society.

  Realising the WT society was wrong desroyed my world, for me it meant so much. I had given so much to it too, it just had to be true! But to accept that would mean to deny other truths. A 3 or 4 year path began where I took every opportunity to learn more about the society, its teachings and its history. I kept hitting circular arguments about imperfect men and light getting brighter. I decided to read page by page the bible once more. This was enough to steer me far away from the WT society and at a pace.

  This reading of the bible also led me away from its very words. I found passages, accounts, history that disgusted me. I now had a huge conflict. The one source of knowlege and comfort in my life, was a disturbing read! Anyone that denies this has simply not read it. I found the god of the bible to be a childish dictator, had he been a human we would be denouncing him as the first Hitler, the original Hitler! He was evil! I certainly did not want to worship him. How did I not know these verses, these accounts existed?

  I still assumed the bible was true until I met a Hebrew and Greek 'scholar'. I started to look at the history books too. Very soon I saw the bible for what it was, I took the blinkers off and saw the endless contradictions I would have sworn never existed in my brainwashed-blinkered state. I saw the writings that denied historical evidence, I saw its teachings and doctrines in older belief systems, I saw Jesus's most favourable golden rule in Egyptian texts and Babylonian poetry... what wasn't plagirised?

  I saw its fundemental theme long before established in astrology and myth....

  I saw the bible for what it was.

  This took me 4 years of reading and research, asking questions and coming to honest conclusions. I say honest as i know my motivation, not anyone elses.

  Baby with the bath water? If it makes you feel better to believe that, I understand. But what motive is there in throwing away your entire belief system? Who WANTS to see their long held beliefs flushed down the toilet? The motive was truth and thats the important message...

  That is the choice, it was for me anyhow...

  Truth or Comfort....
• 

  snare&racket

  Also a really good video for eveyone to see is Jason Beghe (American Actor) on youtube talking about leaving scientology, it is an amazing video for ex JW's to see, he sits there describing his old beliefs and he gets visibly upset, embarassed and ashamed as he realises how silly he was, despite being intelligent. Its a must watch...

  Sorry... back to topic.
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  Qcmbr

  I noticed something strange and exhilarating the other day and it was so unusual that I had to share it with my wife. I was at work and I realised that my interest and ability to retain information in several areas has vastly increased over the last few months. In short its as though I now have additional mental capacity since I'm not passing information via the 'wwJd' and the 'can I do this as a Mormon' filter set.

  Had another experience as well which showed another dimension to this mental change. In my hotel room I inadvertantly hit the disabled alarm button (I'm not disabled but apparently I was assigned a room with those facilities.) Almost immediately someone ran to my door and knocked to check if I was ok and I, in a daze stumbled to the door in my underwear and nothing else. The female staff member looked embarrassed and asked if she could reset it and without thinking I flung the door open and let her in. She scuttled in and out in a couple of seconds and I managed to mumble that she isn't paid enough to have to put up with my nekkid belly and that I was sorry. What was amazing to me was that old me would have

  1. - not let her in as a female alone with me ( just in case jigginess happened ;) )
  2. - been mortified to be caught in my underwear (not just due to its magical nature but just the general act of getting caught undressed) and would have insisted she waited till I dressed and then I would have spent the rest of the day blushing at the situation.

  Just a small situation which shows how thoroughly mentally retarded I allowed religion to make me. I do still get angry that I did not have the personal courage to admit I was wrong sooner. Religion makes it so socially and personally hard to admit things to yourself since once youve singed up to one crazy thing you you've lost any personal integrity that would stop you believing the next thing. Talking animals should have been enough.
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  snare&racket

  Qcmbr, I totally understand what you mean.

  I am studying a challenging degree it is a serious and intense amount of information, we devour texts as thick and detailed as the insight books per semester. Quite regularly, without the aid of the holy spirit, scientific facts enter my head from nowhere when Im asked, or if I need the info... I know 10 years ago that would be "Jehovah bringing scriptures or thoughts to mind."

  How stupid can we be :(
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  metatron

  I think that opinion polls show a general fear of atheism for an instinctive reason. People recognize how corrosive it can be in general society. It's not that atheism makes people into rapists or criminals or some nonsense like that, it's that it tends to move them towards nothing at all.

  The only long term atheistic societies I know of are Buddhist (to the extent that you think of it as atheistic). They are nations that successfully avoided social or technical progress for centuries - until recently challenged by Western influence (still "Judeo-Christian" especially if you observe the elections here in the US)

  I also note Europe drifting into a hard secular/ atheistic sense of the world and they are fading away as they fail to reproduce themselves, while Muslims make babies and often fail to integrate into the culture.

  I may get flamed for saying this but I often experience atheists as people like Hitchen - intelligent, articulate, acerbic - and often, drunk. I had to shake my head at people who cheered him on, avoiding Pascal's Wager, as he died (unlike John Von Neumann). WTF?

  And finally, there is evolution to consider: religion persists because it has value connected with our survival, like it or not. That's why it won't go away. That's also why the fall of the Soviet Union saw the re-emergence of Orthodox Churches over decades of atheist indoctrination.

  metatron
• 

  designs

  Its meterology-science

  http://www.weathervortex.com/sky-holes.htm
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  snare&racket

  Metatron, atheists do good because they want to do good not due to fear of punishment, or losing out on heaven or paradise. What purer motive for good will is there?

  You can look for secular reasons to hold onto religion if you wish, but the reality is you are choosing comfort over truth. Even if religion made the world a better place, it doesnt make it true. But lets not dare to say that it does make the world a better place...... and as for your claim that it produces progress..... lets start with Galileo.....
• 

  xchange

  Metatron: I think that opinion polls show a general fear of atheism for an instinctive reason.
  In other words, their fears are based on irrational reasons. Noted.
  Metatron: People recognize how corrosive it can be in general society.
  
  Those people know how to assert without backing up their claims about atheism. Noted. Metatron: It's not that atheism makes people into rapists or criminals or some nonsense like that,
  
  Agreed. To attach a single explanation towards human behaviour is simple-minded at best. Metatron: it's that it tends to move them towards nothing at all.
  
  Actually, it is usually theists that devalue their current life as they long for their ‘eternal reward’. I on the other hand lead a rich life full of purpose and meaning. That theists claim that an atheists life is meaningless is to say they have never met an atheist and are only basing their assertions on stereotypes and misinformation from religious circles.
• 

  mindseye

  Metatron, there are some valid elements to what you're saying, but some flaws as well.

  I think that opinion polls show a general fear of atheism for an instinctive reason. People recognize how corrosive it can be in general society. It's not that atheism makes people into rapists or criminals or some nonsense like that, it's that it tends to move them towards nothing at all.

  I somewhat agree with your premise. The aversion to atheism, particularly in America, is due to the fact that most American ideals are rooted it Protestant/Puritan ethics. Sociologist Max Weber convincingly proposed that American capitalism evolved from the Protestant "work ethic." Many Americans see atheism, as well as many eastern philosophies, as antithetical to this ethic. Whether or not these alternative philosophies are 'corrosive' to society is highly arguable (I would argue that they are not).

  The only long term atheistic societies I know of are Buddhist (to the extent that you think of it as atheistic). They are nations that successfully avoided social or technical progress for centuries - until recently challenged by Western influence (still "Judeo-Christian" especially if you observe the elections here in the US)

  If we're talking about China here, then Confucian ideals have a significant part to play along with Western influence. Confucian philosophy emphasizes social hierarchy, family values, work ethic, etc. It is the rigid/conservative philosophy of the east (in contrast to Taoism/Buddhism), and is a primary factor as to why the Chinese are open to an increasingly free market and other ambitions. But Confucian philosophy is still devoid of God/Gods. Also, whether this 'progress' in eastern nations is a good thing is also arguable.

  I may get flamed for saying this but I often experience atheists as people like Hitchen - intelligent, articulate, acerbic - and often, drunk. I had to shake my head at people who cheered him on, avoiding Pascal's Wager, as he died (unlike John Von Neumann). WTF?

  Despite some of the "New" Atheists reductionism, I'll have to hand it to Hitchens on avoiding Pascal's Wager. It's one of the most simplistic and absurd arguments in the history of philosophy.

  And finally, there is evolution to consider: religion persists because it has value connected with our survival, like it or not. That's why it won't go away. That's also why the fall of the Soviet Union saw the re-emergence of Orthodox Churches over decades of atheist indoctrination.

  I agree, religion probably has a strong evolutionary basis. And despite the protestations of the "New" Atheists, will never go away.
• 

  tec

  You can look for secular reasons to hold onto religion if you wish, but the reality is you are choosing comfort over truth.

  If you want others to accept why you no longer believe instead of assuming that you 'threw the baby out with the bathwater'; then don't you think you do as you want done to you and not assume to tell believers why they believe?

  Peace,

  Tammy