Atheism 2.0

by Qcmbr 384 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Terry
    Terry

    We cannot even think without words.


    I don't think this is true. There are two reasons I should say so. Sometimes I know what I'm thinking, but I can't think of the word. And before language I am sure creatures thought.

    And a third possible reason why "we cannot even think without words" is not true is animals seem to think simple thoughts. For instance "I love you", and "I want to go out".

    The human mind can entertain "positions taken by contrary views" in a way animals cannot. Humans debate "meaning" through language.

    Just as you demonstrated in your response when you tried to prove we don't use words to think by resorting to USING WORDS.

    Please don't confuse sensations, impressions and emotional reactions to THINKING in any rational, cognitive sense of self-communication.

    I'd compare these perceptions to "music". Lyrics give definite and concrete specifics to the music. Lyrics are words.

    When you are talking to yourself you ALWAYS use language.

    Why do I insist on making this point?

    Glad you asked!

    Words are our TOOLS for getting a job done. The more precise the tool, the more nearly perfect will be the result be.

    Science, which absolutely depends on accuracy, has abandoned the imprecision of even the best words in favor of numbers, math and equations when dealing with minute subdivisions of physic, chemistry, astronomy, etc.

    RELIGION destroys language by making words disconnect from REALITY.

    The destruction of words in religious teaching IS RESPONSIBLE for the disconnect of our rational mind in "thinking" religious thoughts.

    I need only give one example. Jehovah's Witnesses have co-opted THE TRUTH by destroying the precise meaning of Truth and hijacking "meaning" to convey THEIR dogma.

    Please take the time to look up the word: EISOGESIS. It apples to your following remark:

    And a third possible reason why "we cannot even think without words" is not true is animals seem to think simple thoughts. For instance "I love you", and "I want to go out".

  • bohm
    bohm

    I see QCMBRs bollocks and raise with bullshit!

    There is hardly a statement which is not counterfactual or delibrately controversial Terrys post, but this one do stand out:

    The ugly little secret is this: neither Religion nor Atheism are any different in the insanity of their Absolutes.

    Pray tell me, since you have apparently a deeper insight in these ugly secrets than I do, where the "unyielding close-minded grandiosity writ large" reside in (for instance) the following sentiment which i believe quite accurately describe the beliefs of the majority of professed atheists on this site:

    "Most likely there is no God or Gods"

    I simply fail to see the Absolutes (which apparently require capatalization) in the above statement, and if your post was intended as anything more than simply being provocative and silly i do hope you will either

    (1) give concrete examples of the Absolutes which (supposedly) follow quite naturally from the above atheistic sentiment and which are thus held by a significant fraction of professed atheists on this site

    (2) in case you think the above statement is an Absolute in itself, demonstrate the negation is less of an absolute (ie. more likely to be true)

    (3) if you for some reason believe my statement is entirely inaccurate to describe the average elevator-farting superiority-complex-suffering insensitive atheist with tendency towards closely-held absolutes, do give us some more insight in what we /really/ believe. It is rare you get this kind of analysis for free!

    Bonus question: figure out why your usage of "superiority complex" is a tad ironic.

  • Terry
    Terry

    Religion produces a flood of conversation which contain IDEAS about behavior.

    Atheism chokes off the basis of that flow of conversation.

    Atheism would be more EFFECTIVE if it challenged the use of language instead of the existential trivia.

    Whether or not God exists is irrelevent to the CONSEQENCES of asserting behavioral imperatives in the NAME of deity.

    Discussion about God is a PROXY for man's desire to dominate other men by usurping an unprovable connection to the Supernatural!

  • bohm
    bohm

    Terry, please! you are simply being counterfactual here. For instance when you write:

    Religion produces a flood of conversation which contain IDEAS about behavior.

    Atheism chokes off the basis of that flow of conversation.

    Why? because you say so? Sam Harris wrote an entire book (which i have not read) on how to ground moral in the absence of God or Gods, where is the choking off a flow of conversation there?

    I cannot think of an atheist who does not say things about moral and behavior, and while i am sure you can find a nihilist who is also an atheist (but do try to find one without a mental history) i cannot see how you can support a claim like the above with evidence, at least without trying to define Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris and Christopher Hitchens etc. as not being atheists, but that is perhaps what you are really getting at, that these people are not atheists because they do not make any a-priori assumption regarding the existence of God?

    Atheism would be more EFFECTIVE if it challenged the use of language instead of the existential trivia.

    You sure ask us to use language correctly, but could you please try to support your definition of atheist as an a-priori belief (thus entirely removed from evidence) in any way? Let us first agree that your definition of atheist is different from any common definition and thus the statement you make above has nothing to do with any poster on this thread who merely (and wrongly) call himself an atheist...

  • Qcmbr
    Qcmbr

    Doesn't this thread show that atheism doesn't choke off that conversation?

    Surely whether a god exists or not us fundamental to a right to assert behaviour? I find myself disagreeing 100% with your statement. Maybe I'm missing what you are saying.

  • N.drew
    N.drew

    Google says "do you mean eisegesis?".

    In case you mean eisegesis then I imagine you are saying I only think the cat is thinking "I want to go out"? And when kitty does that cute eye thing they do, they are not "thinking" "I love you"?

    But as I read more closely the words that mean eisegesis I wonder if you are posting that in response to my Matthew quote?

    It's a puzzle for sure!

  • Terry
    Terry

    I see QCMBRs bollocks and raise with bullshit!

    And I see that you wish to engage on a more "personal" level with pejoratives.

    ________________________________________________________________________________________________________
    There is hardly a statement which is not counterfactual or delibrately controversial Terrys post, but this one do stand out:

    Pray tell me, since you have apparently a deeper insight in these ugly secrets than I do, where the "unyielding close-minded grandiosity writ large" reside in (for instance) the following sentiment which i believe quite accurately describe the beliefs of the majority of professed atheists on this site:

    "Most likely there is no God or Gods"

    Conveniently, you've chosen a most tepid example! Atheism has a history and a provenance. All sorts of atheists have made statements.

    ________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

    I simply fail to see the Absolutes (which apparently require capatalization) in the above statement, and if your post was intended as anything more than simply being provocative and silly i do hope you will either

    (1) give concrete examples of the Absolutes which (supposedly) follow quite naturally from the above atheistic sentiment and which are thus held by a significant fraction of professed atheists on this site

    __________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

    I personally commending you for admitting that you "fail to see". A couple of quick quotes from professional writers first.

    Agnosticism is a perfectly respectable and tenable philosophical position; it is not dogmatic and makes no pronouncements about the ultimate truths of the universe. It remains open to evidence and persuasion; lacking faith, it nevertheless does not deride faith. Atheism, on the other hand, is as unyielding and dogmatic about religious belief as true believers are about heathens. It tries to use reason to demolish a structure that is not built upon reason.

    SYDNEY J. HARRIS, Pieces of Eight

    Since ancient times, the philosophers' secret has always been this: we know that God does not exist, or, at least, if he does, he's utterly indifferent to our individual affairs--but we can't let the rabble know that; it's the fear of God, the threat of divine punishment and the promise of divine reward, that keeps in line those too unsophisticated to work out questions of morality on their own.

    ROBERT J. SAWYER, Calculating God

    I not only maintain that all religions are versions of the same untruth, but I hold that the influence of churches, and the effect of religious belief is positively harmful. Reviewing the false claims of religion, I do not wish, as some sentimental materialists affect to wish, that they were true. I do not envy believers their faith. I am relieved to think that the whole story is a sinister fairy tale; life would be miserable if what the faithful affirmed was actually the case.

    CHRISTOPHER HITCHENS, Letters to a Young Contrarian

    ________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
    (2) in case you think the above statement is an Absolute in itself, demonstrate the negation is less of an absolute (ie. more likely to be true)

    I can't parse what you're after here. Sorry. My turn to "fail to see."

    _____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

    (3) if you for some reason believe my statement is entirely inaccurate to describe the average elevator-farting superiority-complex-suffering insensitive atheist with tendency towards closely-held absolutes, do give us some more insight in what we /really/ believe. It is rare you get this kind of analysis for free!

    While I sense the emotional tone level of your response I think it is rather self-indulgent and irrelevent. Consider the rudeness with which Christopher Hitchens assaults the good name and character of an almost universally adored humanitarian nun Mother Teresa in his book HELL'S ANGEL:

    “[Mother Teresa] was not a friend of the poor. She was a friend of poverty. She said that suffering was a gift from God. She spent her life opposing the only known cure for poverty, which is the empowerment of women and the emancipation of them from a livestock version of compulsory reproduction.”
    ? Christopher Hitchens

    Then read Slate magazine artilce by Hitchens with this banner:

    By Christopher Hitchens|Posted Monday, Oct. 20, 2003, at 4:04 PM ET

    The pope beatifies Mother Teresa, a fanatic, a fundamentalist, and a fraud.

    http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/fighting_words/2003/10/mommie_dearest.html

    ______________________________________________________________________________________________________

    Bonus question: figure out why your usage of "superiority complex" is a tad ironic.

    I'm guessing that you've taken a public Discussion personally. Since you weren't singled out--I can only wonder "why"? Is your ego connected in some way to impersonal topics? I can't fathom it. You imply I consider myself "superior" in some way.

    Really? Why? Am I not allowed to voice an opinion in a Discussion Group without you getting your knickers in a wad?

  • bohm
    bohm

    Now i get what you are saying!

    Religion produces a flood of conversation which contain IDEAS about behavior.

    Atheism chokes off the basis of that flow of conversation.

    So you are saying the flow of conversation of behaviour which is only grounded in religion is choked off, and that is a problem.

    Religion, too, cut off many flows of conversation of behaviour because I hardly think there is a moral or behavorial question religion (as a whole) is not completely inconsistent about. Secondly, in my oppinion when someone suggest i behave in a certain way, i think it is a very important question to ask 'why', probably the most important. If the motivation is 'because it has positive effects X,Y,Z on your fellow man or yourself' then no matter how atheistic i am or how religious the person who suggest the behaviour is i can consider the behaviour. Atheism does not cut off that flow of conversation, that is just plain wrong to suggest. But atheism DO cut off some flow of conversation. For instance when a muslim suggest i put my women in bags with holes in them so they can look out, or when a christian in africa suggest i cut off parts of my daughters vagina, i freely profess atheism move me towards telling them both to go fuck a goat and (being an atheist) i cannot use non-existing god as a good motivation for behaviour i find harmfull. So i think this leave the obvious question weather it is a great loss to loose the flow of conversation about behaviour which is entirely religiously motivated and not grounded in some other principle like benefit of fellow man, greater good, freedom of the individual etc.
  • Joe Grundy
    Joe Grundy

    I am an atheist - that is to say I don't believe in (or accept the existence of) a God, or gods, or 'inspired' writings. I do accept that belief in some sort of supernatural beings can bring comfort to people, whether they're 'christians', 'muslims', 'buddhists', or whatever, and I acknowledge and accept that their beliefs are important to them.

    I have come to accept that there is no point whatsoever in challenging those who hold 'religious' beliefs - whether it is the Bangkok hooker who lights incense sticks at the shrine at the entrance to a soi where she's going to ply her trade or a pilgrim to Jerusalem who believes that they're going to see a 'holy' site.

    There is no reason for me to discuss anything to do with religion with those who practise it. Their religion (whatever it may be) precludes them from exercising rational thougt. Many people who believe in religion seem to me to be able to 'shut off' part of their brain.

    I have, in the past, tried to have rational discussions with JWs. I have tried to have rational discussions with members of my family (evangelist fundies). There is no point, it is a waste of my time and theirs. We all smile, mouth platitudes, and walk away to our own lives.

  • sabastious
    sabastious
    I don't even know exactly what I really think right now. Which is fun.

    I used to use the magnifying glass just as an ant killer, but now I use it to follow a facinating and very fun path.

    -Sab

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