No N.Drew I think most of us who post here know the bible in excruciating detail.
This Made Me So Thankful I am No Longer A Christian
by cofty 126 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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tec
It's interesting though that Christians who deplore the savage tactics of the earlier Roman Catholic church (e.g., burning apostates at the stake) were "merely" following the violent examples ordered by the Israelite's Jehovian god.
Yes, instead of following Christ, who came and showed us the Truth.
And, if in your state of personal religious conviction you are unbothered by source material, you are marvellously immune to looking at the evidential basis of your belief system -
Christ is the basis of my faith. Christ alone. Other things can support that faith, but He is the basis.
in that regard,at least, you would win the wrath of millions of born-again Christians who thump the Bible loudly and proudly. Look at the republican mess in the states at the moment.
Oh, no doubt, lol. But I'm not worried about pleasing them. Just Christ.
Tammy, what frustrates people including me is the way you have invented an uber-hero out of whole cloth. He is the epitome of everything you consider nice but is based on nothing outside your own imagination.
People keep saying this. I wonder what you're reading? Have you ever just read about Christ and considered his actions. (which often speak far louder than words?) I haven't invented Him. He is as He has always been.
You reject the Jesus of history
How so?
and the messiah of OT prophecy.
Again, how so?
You want nothing to do with the god of the OT who the gospels tell us again and again Jesus identified as his Father.
I have only ever said that God is the Father of Christ... as Christ showed Him to be. There are many instances written in the OT, where you can see the same traits. Just as there are instances where God seems to be in conflict with Himself. But since we can discern the truth of God by looking at Christ, there is no need to try and make things 'fit'. God is as Christ showed Him to be. Period.
You quote NT data that casts Jesus in a good light and reject everything else as the lying pen of the scibes.
Again, I need an exa mple. Not to be pedantic. Just to know where you're coming from.To add intellectual insult you inject "Jesus told me so" every time you need new data to support your position.
When, and what, please?
That is why I said a while ago that Jesus is your sockpuppet.
I know what you said. I just don't know what you back it up with?
Peace to you both,
Tammy
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tec
Are there some people arguing against the Bible without reading it first?
And are there some other people arguing for it that don't know what it says?
I would think yes to both.
Peace,
Tammy
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N.drew
@No N.Drew I think most of us who post here know the bible in excruciating detail.
Wolves will enter and not treat the flock with tenderness
The holy writings were meant for comfort. The "wolves" have turned them into something horrible. Cofty, you know the wolves' rendition. Some people like it just fine that way. I do not. I know the Father. So then when I read what is written and it does not harmonize with "God is Love" I look up the original and do my own translation. You should try it sometime. You know where to go.
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Band on the Run
Tammy,
I don't want to put words in your mouth. Reading your posts, you seem to dismiss the sheer enormity and agony of suffering. Do you acknowledge that suffering raises questions concerning God's existence or whether God is malevolent rather than benevolent. Visit a cancer ward and tell the patients they need faith in Christ. I don't think you would emerge alive-esp. if you visited a Jewish hospital.
I've wondered about it for decades. Short of saying there is definitely NO God, I am left with utter frustration. Perhaps you have some compassion for human sufferers. Heck, when I see animals gorging on each other, I wonder what God created such a system. Eat before you are food. Jesus has compassion in the NT. The OT God seems disgusting. Acknowleding the horror would go far.
I may have misread your statements b/c of my strong feelings. Infants and babies have horrid diseases and may suffer greatly. How does an infant sin or even turn to Christ.
The simple solution is that Christ is a massive figment of the imagination but I don't want to believe it - not just yet.
This is where I encounter the lack of God. Unless you have had severe, chronic illness, humans cannot conceive how bad suffering can be.
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tec
I don't want to put words in your mouth.
Thank you, I appreaciate that. I can see that you are misunderstanding some things that I am saying. Or rather, going further than what I did say. Perhaps I am not being clear, though.
Reading your posts, you seem to dismiss the sheer enormity and agony of suffering.
No, not at all. What do you mean by dismiss?
Do you acknowledge that suffering raises questions concerning God's existence or whether God is malevolent rather than benevolent. Visit a cancer ward and tell the patients they need faith in Christ. I don't think you would emerge alive-esp. if you visited a Jewish hospital.
I acknowledge that suffering raises questions in us concerning those things. I know that the question of why does God allow suffering is the biggest challenge to the faith of many. I do NOT believe that suffering actually puts God into question. Not even His nature of love. If you want me to list what I understand about why God allows suffering, I will. Though that has been done here before (remember that huge long thread of AKJeff's that kind of left everyone e x hausted?).
Now, your comment about a cancer ward shows me that you might misunderstand what I said earlier. We ALL are subject to the limitations and frailties and weaknesses in the flesh. Injury, sickness, pain, death. Regardless of whether or not we have faith or belief. What I said was that faith can help us through that suffering (in terms of strength and endurance).
I've wondered about it for decades. Short of saying there is definitely NO God, I am left with utter frustration.
Like I said, I can share what I understand on that if you like.
Perhaps you have some compassion for human sufferers. Heck, when I see animals gorging on each other, I wonder what God created such a system. Eat before you are food.
This I can only guess at. I don't know. Since I don't know, I look to and trust in what I DO know about Christ and God. Perhaps I will be able to understand this later.
Jesus has compassion in the NT. The OT God seems disgusting. Acknowleding the horror would go far.
Jesus shows us the nature of His Father. That is Truth. Often what is written about the OT God represents the limited understanding of the people doing the writing... or the scribing. Or the translating. (perhaps also 'strutting', to make others be afraid to attack them, or to keep some in line... sort of like the Elijah and the bears story)
I may have misread your statements b/c of my strong feelings. Infants and babies have horrid diseases and may suffer greatly. How does an infant sin or even turn to Christ.
Like I said... the afflictions of the flesh shows no discrimination. Infant, elder, male, female, faithful, atheist, etc. An infant is still born of us and our nature, and so into the flesh (not in the garden of eden/the spiritual realm), and so subject to the afflictions of the physical.
The simple solution is that Christ is a massive figment of the imagination but I don't want to believe it - not just yet.
It is one train of thought, true.
But from the very beginning of being cast from the garden of eden (the spiritual), and trapped in the flesh (the physical), we were told that there would be suffering and pain. So it should not be a surprise to any person of faith that there is suffering and pain. Much of which we know is caused by our own action or inaction. Or perhaps the actions or inactions of the generations before us.
Unless you have had severe, chronic illness, humans cannot conceive how bad suffering can be.
You're right there. I don't know. So I wouldn't think of judging anyone... even if I did know, for that matter, because I could only know for myself. Some are in so much pain they question the eistance of God or even curse him (as Job was meant to do); and some remain faithful (as Job did); and some turn to God for comfort and strength, knowing that it is the spirit that counts, and not the flesh. Though the flesh is one hell of a trial to our peace and integrity and loyalty and nature, in times of suffering.
Peace,
Tammy
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cofty
Much of which we know is caused by our own action or inaction.
Blame the victim?
Like I said, I can share what I understand on that if you like.
Yes please.
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tec
Wolves will enter and not treat the flock with tenderness
The holy writings were meant for comfort. The "wolves" have turned them into something horrible. Cofty, you know the wolves' rendition. Some people like it just fine that way. I do not. I know the Father. So then when I read what is written and it does not harmonize with "God is Love" I look up the original and do my own translation. You should try it sometime. You know where to go.
That was very well said, Nancy.
Peace,
Tammy
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cofty
The holy writings were meant for comfort
If you filter out most of the bible. (I know - lying scribes, translation blah blah blah - how convenient)
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tec
Blame the victim?
Not at all. Blame the one(s) causing the suffering... by action or inaction. Suffering is also often a consequence of those actions or inactions. I'm speaking mostly about emotional suffering, but we could also take some kind of physical suffering... such as death and rape and terrible injuries suffered as a consequence of war. We (humanity) cause that. A child killed in war is a direct consequence of our actions, not the action or inaction of the child. That child is a victim of his parents generation, and not to blame.
Okay. My understanding on why God allows suffering:
First off, it is important to note that we cause suffering; so we are responsible for doing something about it. God has told us how to live and treat one another... and if we listened, we would go a long way to eliminating much suffering... yet we don't listen. We want to do things our way, and so we get what we want. As well as the results.Second, there are a couple of positives than can come from suffering, taking from the bad to create something good. We can learn from suffering; though this would be learning the hard way, since we choose not to learn the easy way... by listening to Christ and God -(or love, for those who haven't grown up in a place to learn about Christ). We can learn what we should NOT be doing. We can learn empathy for others who are suffering... this is especially good for those who stand in judgment and arrogance of those who suffer (those who suffer like the homeless or the poor). Some who would never know they had anything loving within them can be found to do heroic and unselfish deeds when they see others suffering. Some might not have learned that otherwise, or developed that about themselves. Some might simply have tra-la-la'ad along in their empty, comfortable, entertaining lives, completely oblivious to what REALLY matters... helping and loving one another.
Like I said, suffering is kind of like learning the hard way. Unfortunately, while some of us do learn and do become stronger, better, more loving, less judgmental... some of us just continue not to care about others suffering, and in fact, continue to cause the suffering.
Thinking about this, my Lord also reminded me of this scripture (two actually):
Isaiah 58:10
Is not this the kind of fasting I have chosen: to loose the chains of injustice and untie the cords of the yoke, to set the oppressed free and break every yoke? Is it not to share your food with the hungry and to provide the poor wanderer with shelter--when you see the naked, to clothe him, and not to turn away from your own flesh and blood? Then your light will break forth like the dawn, and your healing will quickly appear; then your righteousness will go before you, and the glory of the LORD will be your rear guard. Then you will call, and the LORD will answer; you will cry for help, and he will say: Here am I.
Malachi 3:10 Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. "Test me in this", says the LORD Almighty, "and see if I will not throw open the floogates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that you will not have room enough for it".
I know the verse in Malachi speaks of 'tithing' but things and money mean nothing to God. What matters to God are the things he spoke of in the above scripture. How we treat one another. How we give to and love one another. A lot of Malachi is people leveling accusations against God, actually.
But we don't listen. We do our own thing. We want God to end our suffering... even though we cause or do nothing to end others. Even though we do not do what he asked of us in Isaiah. Even though we do not do the things that Christ taught us to do. Some of try to follow, I know. Some of us don't even bother with trying, or even think we should. I personally know of no one (myself included) who gives everything of themselves to help others. Most of us give out of our surplus. But that is not what we are asked to do.
There are people freezing in my city. We have deaths each year when the temps drop so cold as they were this year. There are a lot of homeless, and the shelter only take so many, and the Hope van that drives around to give out warm food and drink and let them warm up can only reach so many. Did I go out and fine someone and open my home to them? I want to; I wish I had the courage to do so. If I were outside in that cold, I would want someone to have enough love in them to do that for me. But did I? No.
So do I deserve for God to ease my suffering? I do not.
Yet in his mercy and love, He offers us forgiveness... and all we have to do is have faith in His Son, who did what we could not FOR US. Because we sure can't be counted on to save ourselves through our own deeds! I try to follow His Son, and I do love His Son, and I also know I constantly fall short.
Knowing that, and knowing about all the suffering in this world that comes from our own hands... well, I just don't see us having a leg to stand on in blaming Him for not stopping our suffering.
Peace to you,
Tammy