by garyneal 29 Replies latest jw friends
You could ask them to explain "legalism" and its opposite whilst continually drawing them out to dig and think deeper and maybe eventually ask them to present examples outside and inside the organisation.
There is only one article that refers to "legalism" and it gently exposes Watchtower error (Ray Franz ISOCF style).
concerning a verse in the book of Proverbs that shows that Jesus was with His Father in Heaven at and before creation
Wow, using a poem about wisdom to disprove a highly technical doctrine about the divinity of Christ through a highly dubious parallel. That is going to sway you.
Everything he is trying is so simplistic that I feel sorry for him, and feel like recommending that you just let him go. Then again, it is too good an opportunity to miss. I would dismiss his illogical reasonings, ie Reasoning book showing how many translations they use, by a quick shut down response, of "JWs are no different to any other religion. There are plenty that studiously think they are the only ones with truth." That then is your segue to 1919; "you need to be able to prove that Jehovah chose the Watchtower in 1919, and it just cannot be done."
Hopefully he will leave you alone after that.
Thanks for all the responses, everyone.
I am at my desk and the verse is Proverbs 8:30. Looking at this document, it is just a bunch of translations of that verse gleened from Bible Gateway. I don't know why he wants it back as it is nothing but a bunch of copy and paste, but he can have it back. I guess I should give him some credit for even producing something as many witnesses I encounter don't even bother.
If they cannot prove this to you, why should you even consider joining ??
Phizzy, I have always maintained this as my whole point. Brother Hero never did describe the whole blood doctrine clearly and concisely so that anyone with more than two brain cells could get it and see the logic to the whole madness. Yet, if I joined this religion, I would have to swallow that doctrine hook line and sinker. Prove the selection and it would not matter then, sure it makes no since but it came directly from God through His one Earthly channel. His ways are higher than ours, yada yada yada....
diamonddiz, I was considering the 607 thing but I would admit, I am not very good with the whole thing. Besides, it was not enough to sway my wife, the elder, or Brother Hero.
scary21, nice. I can imagine his response though. "Well, the church apostasize from the truth after the apostles died, yada yada yada."
Fernando, thanks for the suggestion.
jwfacts: I tried to let them go when I told them I was not interested in continuing the Bible study. Brother Hero was crushed, but oh well. Incidentally, my F-I-L was not aware of any selection in 1919 but said that he would look it up for me. I don't expect to hear anything more from him about it though.
He would benefit from having to defend selection in 1919 in the presence of both you and your wife.
I think if you have an actual copy of Finished Mystery with little yellow sticky notes on each page with a note referring to the points on Alfred's thread that would be a hell of an eye opener!
Then again, it might not mean a thing to a mind controlled JW.
Russell's writings will not mean a thing. JWs look at that as old, outdated doctrine that has been replaced by God's Holy Spirit providing New Lite. They view the old Russell ideas as miraculously guiding JWs to the 1914 date as something of monumental importance, even tho they did not ascertain WHAT it really meant at that time. While it may have been what JWs (Bible Students) believe long ago, it is NOT what they believe now, so it is irrelevant. Those men of long ago, tho used by the Holy Spirit, just did not fully comprehend the "full picture" such as the F&DS does now.
Additionally, 1919 is just to damn complicated for most R&F JWs to understand. So, they just give up and don't even try, saying instead that they trust the F&DS/bOrg who it is that helped them understand the fundamental Truths of the Bible. Therefore, they "know" that they can have full confidence in the deeper things said, that they just cannot understand. Sorry, but all you're going to get is frustrated.
DOC
Sorry, but all you're going to get is frustrated.
Maybe, perhaps, but the thing is if he cannot prove it, why should I join? The Independent Fundamental Baptists also claimed to have the only correct teachings of the Bible. How is the witnesses claim any different? If the selection can indeed be proven, we have our answer. Otherwise, they are simply another Christian sect with a different take on the Bible, what the Baptists do or do not do has no bearing on that fact.
Garyneal - You said that -
I find that much of my efforts are simply a waste of time and a distraction from me trying to live my life.
For this reason I'd just let them go.
I find it interesting that they use different translations and pick from the translations that suit their doctrine to make their point. To pick and choose from translations is to me at least, arrogance. The person cherry picking is setting themselves up as an authority on the Bible and declaring that they have the divine right to interpret it. If you see what I mean.
Unless you enjoy a friendly waste of time with them I wouldn't bother with it. As you intimated they won't listen anyway and likely go away telling each other you are the deluded one!
BTW. They counted time and a return visit each for their time slips when they saw you. I don't mean to critisize them ad hominem as they are programmed to do this. If they do come back to see you they'll count the time and a return visit again.
But as the commentator on the UK gameshow 'Blind date' used to say: 'The choice is yours!'
Regards Paolo
Gary, I totally understand and agree with your argument.
The local JWs have probably only given you this much time and attention due to the fact that your wife is an active member. In my past, I would have already concluded that witnessing to you was throwing pearls before swine. That's how we write-off those who are not humble enough to accept the Truth. Obviously (coded word), such a person is not being DRAWN BY JEHOVAH at this time.
I'm just saying that most JWs aren't knowledgeable enough about their own religion to know the 1914/1919 doctrine so that you could disprove it to them. They cannot UNlearn what they have never learned to begin with. It is only credulity that permits them to stay in the religion. They WANT to believe it. For many of them, it's all they know. They shut out any reasonable argument that would weaken their "faith". Where else would they go?
Good luck! Hopefully you might plant some seeds, particularly with Brother Sidekick. Keep us updated.
DOC
I questioned him on the 607 BCE thing and he even acknowledged that if 607 is wrong, the core foundation of the ‘truth’ goes with it.
And what a pitiful benchmark upon which to base the core foundation of a religion.
It is pure secular historical speculation (patently wrong speculation) and yet it is to the witness chronology the holy of holies.
Pitifully bizarre - and in NOT ONE CASE has any prophecy derived from it succeeded in the least way.
they are simply another Christian sect with a different take on the Bible,
They may just tell you that they're the only doing preaching work like no one else. If they're too deeply indoctrinated there really is nothing you can do at this time other than sow seeds of "hope". And by hope, I mean that maybe one day one of those people will have event in their life where they will think independently and remember what you said and that information will somehow make them think, but since hope is usually an empty word it's unlikely these witnesses will do anything with the information they hear.
A JW who is deep asleep will ignore any and all truths presented because there is always something that makes wts the troof. 607 wrong? No problem, it will get sorted out later. 1914 wrong? No problem we're serving Jehovah not for a time. GB not chosen? How do you know? .... And on and on. You read posts by Alice/Maze here many times and no truth was able to penetrate it's mind so likewise these dubs are beyond help at this time.
IMO the only thing you can do is give them some information that they may ponder upon at some later period but besides that I wouldn't expect anything out of the conversation. If your wife is under heavy mind control like many active witnesses, she won't see the problem even if the elders can't explain 607 or 1918 to you in front of her. Only when an individual is going through some sort of event in their life, are they willing to think differently than their usual thinking pattern allows them - that's how generally people get recruited into a cult and how many also leave the cult.
