Elder father sent me an email about Feb 2012 WT - my resposne

by TheStumbler 97 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • ShadesofGrey
    ShadesofGrey

    The quote is not just about the past. It also says this:

    Moreover, Jesus said that we should not be judging one another. We look at the outward appearance; God looks at the heart. He sees accurately and judges mercifully. He has committed judgment into Jesus' hands, not ours.

    Just some lying in order to help God out I suppose.

    Theocratic warfare? "Does God want your help if you are going to twist the truth for him? Be careful that he does not find out what you are doing! Or do you think you can fool God as well as men? No, you will be in serious trouble with him if you use lies to try to help him out. Doesn't his majesty strike terror to your heart? How can you do this thing?"-- Job 13:7-11

  • TheStumbler
    TheStumbler

    @DesirousofChange,

    Yeah, he has come with some funny ones over the years – here are my favourites: The FBI investigated the Watchtower because it couldn’t believe such a large organisation has no leadership - No one knows how the sun works because scientists cannot get close enough to test it It is not wise to believe in theories (despite me explaining to him multiple times what a scientific theory is) Pilots have to constantly adjust the plane’s direction or else eventually the plane would fly into space The world rotates on three axis (while alluding to the ‘fine tuning’ argument he had half remembered from a Watchtower). I don’t believe humans evolved from monkeys There’s more historical evidence that Jesus existed than there is that Napoleon existed. There was this recent exchange last year: Him ‘I don’t know why you believe in evolution, what about the missing links? A recent Watchtower article still said there are no fossils linking humans to monkeys [primates]’ Me ‘what about Homo Africanus, Homo Erectus, Australopithicus, homo habilis’ Him – blank stare Me ‘how can you say there are no transitional fossils without even a basic knowledge of the fossil record’ He quickly changed the subject. And to think he delivers public talks on science

  • TheStumbler
    TheStumbler

    00DAD,

    yeah, I agree. havnt had time to craft a response yet but I'll really focus on his understanding being different from the watcthower's on this point and ask him to explain why this is:

    Either his understanding is different from the Watchtower's (which is a big no no) or he has to show that the Watchtower teaches non JWs will survive Armageddon

  • Black Sheep
    Black Sheep
    This makes me think, if ignorance of 'the truth' is a loophole for surviving Armageddon - why do JWs preach? their success rate is terrible and the vast majority of people who decline to accept their literature at the door would stand a better chance of survival if the witness never called on them in the first place.

    You are correct. How can they say they have a life saving work if someone ignorant of the JW message has free passage to Paradise until they throw a preacher from a failed doomsday cult off their porch? But they just don't get it, no matter how you word it.

    You have to take them through it in baby steps. They are completely scatterbrained. You need to get them to focus on one item at a time from their own literature that contradicts them. No distractions from us or them. Carefully crafted questions with no wiggle room and no excuse to not answer.

    "But Jehovah God has also provided his visible organization, his "faithful and discreet slave", made up of spirit-anointed ones, to help Christians in all nations to understand and apply properly the Bible in their lives. Unless we are in touch with this channel of communication that God is using, we will not progress along the road to life, no matter how much Bible reading we do." Watchtower 1981 Nov 15 p.27

    It would be nice to say my father was honest. He preaches honesty. The Watchtower has taught him to make dishonesty an art form.

  • blondie
    blondie

    The WTS does not teach that everyone has to have a personal witness:

    *** w00 1/15 p. 13 par. 17 “Keep on the Watch” ***Fifth, we see a global preaching work being accomplished, which Jesus said would take place just before the end of this system. Jesus stated: “This good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.” (Matthew 24:14)Today, that prophecy is in the course of fulfillment on an unprecedented scale. True, untouched territories still exist, and it may be that in Jehovah’s due time, a large door leading to greater activity will open. (1 Corinthians 16:9) Nevertheless, the Bible does not state that Jehovah will wait until every individual on earth has received a personal witness. Rather, the good news must be preached to Jehovah’s satisfaction. Then the end will come.—Compare Matthew 10:23.

    *** w526/1p.344FixingDestiniesinThisJudgmentPeriod***COMMUNITYRESPONSIBILITY

    The people must accept responsibility for the nation’s acts. If the government becomes too oppressive against them they oust it, by either ballots or bullets. But wickedness against God they placidly tolerate. To them personal convenience and liberty are more precious than godliness. They revolt from harsh rulers, but support godless ones. They lack the burning love for righteousness and the devouring hate for wickedness that would consume the corruption and immorality now rampant in all human governments. Rulers and ruled wallow in the trough of an international moral breakdown. (2 Tim. 3:1-5) Nations operate according to the principle of community responsibility. Rulers may start wars, but the people fight them. It is upon the people generally, young and old, male and female, that the enemy nation rains destruction, and not upon the wicked rulers. The nations in their wars sow death on the basis of community responsibility. Will it not be just for them to reap it on the same basis at Armageddon? Can they rightly complain if they reap as they sow, are judged as they judged, are shown the same mercy they showed? If the people either actively or passively support what is corrupt and immoral and murderous, do they not bear some responsibility therefor?—Matt. 5:7; 7:1, 2; Gal. 6:7; Jas. 2:13 .

    *** w97 8/15 p. 14 par. 11 Living for Today or for an Eternal Future? ***

    Today, Jehovah’s Witnesses carry out their work in 233 lands, island groups, and territories. True, untouched territories still exist, and perhaps in Jehovah’s due time, a door of opportunity will open. (1 Corinthians 16:9) Still, Jesus’ words recorded at Matthew 10:23 are sobering: "You will by no means complete the circuit of the cities of Israel until the Son of man arrives." While the good news will surely be announced throughout the earth, we will not in person reach all parts of the earth with the Kingdom message before Jesus "arrives" as Executioner.

    *** w65 3/15 pp. 175-176 pars. 8-10 Our Own Twentieth-Century Generation and the Resurrection ***

    The "goats" would also include those husbands and wives who have believing marriage partners but who, in spite of the good example of their believing marriage mates, are found to be still unbelievers in the day and at the hour of the execution of God’s judgment against this enemy world; also, the children of a believing parent or the children of believing parents (fathers and mothers), which children were once "holy" as minors, as unresponsible children, but who have grown up to responsible years and have refused to become dedicated, baptized believers by the time that divine execution upon the "goats" begins.—1 Cor. 7:12-16.

    In other words, at the time of the execution of divine judgment the "goats" would be all those persons, young and old, who have not become "sheep" and who have not been gathered into the "one fold" under the "one shepherd," where the small remnant of the Shepherd’s spiritual brothers are.—John 10:16; Rev. 7:9-17.

    The undedicated children of goatish people will not be spared from execution and being sentenced to Gehenna just because they are themselves minor, unresponsible children. This hard fact is illustrated in the orders that Jehovah God issued to his executioners when apostate Jerusalem was to be destroyed. To his executioners he said: "Pass through the city after him [the man who marked the ones to be spared] and strike. Let not your eye feel sorry, and do not feel any compassion. Old man, young man and virgin and little child and women you should kill off." And that is what they did, as illustrated in Jerusalem’s destruction, 607 B.C.E.-Ezek. 9:5-7.

  • TheStumbler
    TheStumbler

    Hey Blondie,

    do you know of any more recent statements made by the Watchtower that only JWs or will survive or explanation of who is the great crowd?

    Thanks

  • TheStumbler
    TheStumbler

    I never sent my previous resposne after my phone conversation with my Dad. I have written this response instead:

    I read through your comments and considered them carefully.

    I want to focus on one issue – who will die at Armageddon.

    Last year when I said that the Watchtower teaches only Jehovah’s Witnesses will survive Armageddon, you said that your understanding was different to mine. When I spoke to you on the phone on Monday and I asked if the Watchtower teaches that only Jehovah’ witnesses will survive Armageddon you replied ‘No’.

    I believe you are wrong - the Watchtower does teach that only Jehovah’s Witnesses will survive Armageddon and it can proved with its publications.

    In 1989 the Watchtower states in clear language that only Jehovah’s Witnesses have any hope surviving Armageddon:

    "Only Jehovah's Witnesses, those of the anointed remnant and the "great crowd," as a united organization under the protection of the Supreme Organizer, have any Scriptural hope of surviving the impending end of this doomed system dominated by Satan the Devil." Watchtower 1989 Sep. 1 p.19

    In 1983 the Watchtower stated that to receive everlasting life a person must identify Jehovah’s organisation and serve as part of it.

    "Similarly, Jehovah is using only one organization today to accomplish his will. To receive everlasting life in the earthly Paradise we must identify that organization and serve God as part of it." Watchtower 1983 Feb. 15 p.12

    The Watchtower clearly identifies itself as Jehovah’s organisation and to state otherwise would be disingenuous.

    The above quotes quite clearly show that the Watchtower teaches only Jehovah’s Witnesses will survive Armageddon. You have told me that you do not have to be a Jehovah’s Witness to survive Armageddon.

    Is you understanding of the Bible different to the Watchtower’s understanding?

    If this is no longer the Watchtower’s understanding and teaching then you have to be able to demonstrate this to me with references to more recent Watchtower publications.

    This quote from 2006 suggest that it is still a current teaching:

    "During the final period of the ancient world that perished in the Flood, Noah was a faithful preacher of righteousness. (2 Peter 2:5) In these last days of the present system of things, Jehovah’s people are making known God’s righteous standards and are declaring good news about the possibility of surviving into the new world. (2 Peter 3:9-13) Just as Noah and his God-fearing family were preserved in the ark, survival of individuals today depends on their faith and their loyal association with the earthly part of Jehovah’s universal organization." (Watchtower 2006 May 15 p.22 "Are You Prepared for Survival?)

    In fact, I included this 2006 Watchtower quote in my previous email and in your response, directly beneath it, you wrote ’correct’ indicating that you agree ‘survival depends on loyal association with Jehovah’s earthly organisation’.

    This contradicts what you told me on the phone and in your previous email. If you do not have to be a Jehovah’s witness to survive Armageddon then how does survival depend on associating with the earthly part of Jehovah’s organisation?

    These statements are contradictory

    A) You do not have to be a Jehovah’s witness to survive Armageddon (your words)

    B) Surviving Armageddon depends on loyal association with Jehovah’s earthly organisation

    Please explain to me how you can hold two mutually exclusive beliefs?

    I tried to keep it focused on one issue - like some of you have suggested. I have tried not to leave any wiggle room and used Watchtower quotes that talk in more certain terms.

    The only thing I think he might say is try and side step the question by saying that generally the Watchtower's teaching often changes..

    Any suggestions to tighten up the above?

  • jonathan dough
    jonathan dough

    With respect to Christianity, not WBTS theology, and considering the reach that Radio, TV and the Internet, etc. has, not to mention the reach of over 2 billion Christians worldwide, then technically preaching the gospel has reached to every corner of the globe, for the most part.

    http://144000.110mb.com/trinity/index.html

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