The Science Thread

by EntirelyPossible 65 Replies latest jw experiences

  • NewChapter
    NewChapter

    Not yet, at least. I do not have the time. I barely have the time to devote myself to something I want to do, which is to write

    Tec! I didn't know this. We must talk. Actually I went back to college to work on my writing, but it turns out the Writing courses have little to offer me. It's been the OTHER courses, history--anthropology---etcetera that have benefitted me most. They are opening my worldview and understanding and giving me many more things to write about! Anyway, I'm going to send you a pm later on. I'm remodeling my kitchen and must run to the Home Depot---RIGHT NOW. I have got to get off this thing.

  • tec
    tec

    I'll wait for your pm, NC. But this:

    It's been the OTHER courses, history--anthropology---etcetera that have benefitted me most. They are opening my worldview and understanding and giving me many more things to write about!

    I totally hear you! If I had known what I wanted to do, and I had known this ^, then I would have worried less about how to apply a college/university degree to a job... rather than to learning something to help with the writing. I knew how to write, so I didn't need to take that... some technical courses are always good, though, I think.

    But yeah, I would have taken a lot of sciences (oceonagraphy, marine biology, geology, archeology, anthropology, engineering, ancient history) I would have tried to specialize in one thing (the ocean and ocean life for my genre), so that the 'world' and 'plot' that I create in that genre is realistic and sound and totally believable.

    Have fun at Home Depot :)

    Peace,

    Tammy

  • LoneWolf
    LoneWolf

    Hi, Peeplezs,

    Okay, yer on! And no, Ocmbr, it has nothing to do with the Expanding Earth theory, nor does it have anything to do with Creation Science, even though I feel they do have some points. This is entirely new.

    It is a bit involved, as is any 4 dimensional model would be, so I wish to construct it in stages. I think you will find that each stage will lead into the next stage in a natural manner. We are merely playing with the effects of one factor at a time. The model could be used in any of a multitude of ways, but for this application we will concentrate only on how it might affect the theories of Pangea and continental drift.

    I want to thank you folks too, for while this is just plain old fun for me, there is a serious purpose behind it. Briefly, I find to my surprise that I’m close friends with some high ranking (scientific, military, & otherwise) folks that are currently engaged in some studies that go beyond the frontiers of our current knowledge. This includes D.O.A.A. and other such entities. If you’re interested, I can give you a few more details on this later.

    I’ve been submitting some of these things to them and they’ve been accepted well. Therefore, the accuracy of the known components and the logic is quite important. I’m challenging you, yes, but that’s just the fun part of it and (hopefully) helps make it fun for you too. The serious part of it is that I will be grateful for anything you can add and/or mistakes you find.

    This is a “model” I’ve been playing with for a long time, and was inspired by a disagreement I had with AlanF years ago. Therefore, if you need someone to blame things on, blame it on him. (Grin)

    And for what it’s worth, if you don’t mind playing out here in the intellectual “empirean”, there are a few more of these that I’d like to run by you later.

    So, let’s sketch in a framework for this “model” and maybe a detail or two to demonstrate its possible value. One post would be far too small to try to give you a complete picture. That said, grab a beer, stick yore feet up on the desk, and prepare to peruse some heresy.

    You know what happens when an astronaut “spills” water in the Space Station. In that weightless environment, it becomes little balls of liquid that float around in the air until they are recaptured. Now, let’s have some fun with one of them.

    Increase its diameter to 10 ft by adding water to it. Of course, we now have a problem (not counting that the Space Station probably wouldn’t have room for it) in that the only thing holding it in a ball shape is the water’s surface tension, and just about anything would shatter it into smaller balls. Let’s solve that by inserting a cupful of gecko juice (most people call it gravity) smack dab in the middle of it. That should give us a fairly stable (coherent) 10 ft. ball of water floating in space right in front of us. It’s about now that it becomes interesting.

    For instance, let’s stick a heating device right in there with the gecko juice, thereby causing a convection current. How we power it will make a difference. If we use infrared lasers and make them intersect in the heart of the globe, then after a while we should find “plumes” of heated water coming straight up the laser beams. This in itself would be a fascinating study because we are only used to thinking of convection currents in an “up/down” planar environment where the liquid goes up in a hot spot, then across and down in a cooler one. In our imaginary 10 ft. ball of liquid, the only “down” would be in the center of the ball, and all other directions would be “up”. What would a convection current look like now? How would it flow on the surface? At a depth of 2 ft.? At a depth of 4 ft? (It’s getting narrower down here!)

    Of course the ideal way to power the heating device would be by using something that has no reaction with the water itself and therefore doesn’t affect the resulting convection currents. Would a heater powered by EMP work? (Grin)

    Whatever, we now have a 10 ft. ball of water that not only holds together, but it is in motion on the inside. Once an equilibrium is established under the existing conditions of heat and gravity, fairly stable currents should result. Change the conditions, and you change the results.

    Now, let’s apply this in just one small way.

    Increase the temperature of the ball to about 120 degrees F. (slightly above the melting point of most waxes), and slip a few bricks of wax into the ball. It will, of course, melt, float, and gradually cover the surface of the ball. Now cool the ball to where the wax starts solidifying. What will the wax do and where will the convection currents deposit the solids?

    Perhaps a better idea could be gained by changing the ball of water to a ball of milk, and raising the temperature to boiling. As anyone who has boiled milk will remember, a skim is formed over the top. However, it is not evenly distributed. The milk is still boiling in the hot spots, but the skim is shunted off to the coolest and least active areas where it gets thicker and is jammed together, forming a mass of solids with wrinkles and ridges.

    Now look at the shapes of the hot spots. They determine the shapes of the fields of solids. If you have a hot circular “plume”, the solids will be pushed away in all directions evenly, leaving a roughly circular space around the plume (unless, of course, another hot spot interferes).

    But what if the hot spot isn’t circular? What if it is linear, similar to that type of volcano known as a “Fissure Vent”, where the ground opens and lava flows out all along the crack? The liquids will now tend to flow at a roughly 90 degree angle to the fissure, and will leave a series of layers on each side (according to what is being belched out at any given time) that will be mirror images to each other. Plus, the fields of solids on each side will roughly imitate the shape of the fissure and be equidistant from it.

    In addition, let’s say that the fissure is a few thousand miles in length and is shaped like an elongated “S”. Now grab an atlas and take a long hard gander at the Mid-Atlantic Ridge and the surrounding continents and tell me what you see.

    Yup. I’m being a naughty bad boy and am suggesting that Pangaea is the fig nootin of an overheated scientific imagination (probably one o’ those global warming experts), and is 200% hogwash, poppycock, and just plain old BS.

    And heck, this is only playing on the surface of our ball for a few minutes! Wait until we go down! It really gets interesting then!

    Okay, I’m awaitin’ fer them thar fellers in the little white coats. (Grin)

    Turrible Tom

  • EntirelyPossible
    EntirelyPossible

    This isn't interesting at all. It's based on a gravity gun that doesn't exist, an EMP behaving like a microwave oven and thermodynamics of water that don't work.

    You're not being naughty, you are being folksy and making up properties and devices that don't exist to get a result that is nonsensical.

  • NewChapter
    NewChapter

    Tammy, you have a pm

  • tec
    tec

    Now you have a pm :)

  • LoneWolf
    LoneWolf

    EP – Ah, yes, the usual ridicule that is passed off as “scientific” reasoning. Ignore the thrust of the question and pick on picayune details that make no difference.

    1. The “gravity gun” – To those who are more interested in an inquiry into the unknown than they are in establishing the pecking order, it can be easily understood that the ball of water is being used as a model for the earth itself. The last time I checked, the earth does have gravity, and as usual in theoretical models, a little “scientific license” is permissible in approximating the object being examined.

    2. The EMP heater – Did you notice the (Grin) afterwards? I don’t know what would work without it disturbing the water itself in that situation. The point of the illustration is that there would be convection currents, and that they would work in an entirely different pattern in a globular than they do in a planar scenario. IF you had come down off your cloud long enough to actually ask an intelligent question, you might have questioned whether or not convection currents exist as a causal effect in such things as continental drift, etc.

    And incidentally, micro-waves and EMP are two different things.

    3. “Thermodynamics of water that don’t work” – So you are saying that there is no such thing as a convection current in water? If there is, then what would it look like in a globe with the heat source in its center? Many if not most people can’t visualize four dimensional models like that. Can you? So far, it looks like you can’t.

    4. Yes, I am being folksy. Has it occurred to you that there might be a sound reason for that? Folksiness tends to turn off and drive away the “super-fine apostles” and egotists whose prime interest is in proving themselves better than anyone else. They spoil any enjoyment the other members may find in whatever activity is being engaged in. On the other hand it will attract those who simply want to relax and enjoy a stimulating conversation.

    I’ve spent 70+ years in putting up with stuffed shirts trying to establish the pecking order (primarily elders) and none of them have succeeded yet. I have intimate knowledge of their habit of demanding proof that you have the right to ask questions or even think without their permission, of insisting that every little thing said be couched in “proper” terminology for it to be even considered, that they are doing you a “favor” by recognizing your existence, and all the rest of their nonsense.

    Such people are not the type of companions I want, and being “folksy” does a marvelous job of weeding them out. I have no interest in either their approval OR their disapproval. The people I really appreciate and prefer as companions are those who know how to let their hair down and explore the unknown just for the sheer joy of it.

    Any questions?

    Tom

  • EntirelyPossible
    EntirelyPossible

    Ignore the thrust of the question and pick on picayune details that make no difference.

    No, I didn't ignore the main thrust. The details are what makes it workable or not. Water is not an approximation for the earth, particularly for things like density of water vs. magma, the layering of the mantle, things like the silica content of magma giving it different behavioral properties.

    Of course you can use approximations and license when creating a model, you probably can't use actual magma. However, you do need to have things that approximate to your subject under study. For istance, peanut butter is a good model based approximation for silica rich magma.

    License is not liberty to claim your model is right when it's not only not even in the ballpark, it's a different sport being played in a different city.

    And incidentally, micro-waves and EMP are two different things.

    I know. That's why I said it wouldn't work. EMP's DON'T work like microwave ovens, that was my point.

    So you are saying that there is no such thing as a convection current in water?

    No.

    Many if not most people can’t visualize four dimensional models like that. Can you? So far, it looks like you can’t.

    Your model was three dimensions, using the center of the mass, the ball proceeded along the x, y and z axes relative to the frame of reference.

    Such people are not the type of companions I want, and being “folksy” does a marvelous job of weeding them out. I have no interest in either their approval OR their disapproval. The people I really appreciate and prefer as companions are those who know how to let their hair down and explore the unknown just for the sheer joy of it.

    This has nothing to do with pecking order or giving you approval. Putting forth a hypothesis and asking for opinions is inviting critical feedback. And people that do explore the unknown for the sheer joy of it are scientists. They have a method that works. When you try to play science and don't use it, the feedback will be that you have no idea what you are doing, just like if you played golf and didn't know how to count strokes.

  • Qcmbr
    Qcmbr

    I'm not certain what this has to do with plate tectonics? Are you suggesting that a metal core body under intense pressure can be modeled effectively with a water and wax system? It may well do but I'd be surprised if your thought experiment does.

    Pangea evidence rests upon several different peices of evidence - the ability to fit land masses together is actually one of the weaker ones (considering deposition and erosion.)

    There is also evidence from rock strata , fossils (showing correlation until the land mass broke and then showing divergent evolution ) and coal formations (which need to be produced by rainforest type conditions to my understanding) which argues that continents must be moving across the equator and then carrying resulting cola formations to places where they wouldn't be able to form.

  • cofty
    cofty

    The sequence of magnetic rocks alternating north and south polarity in a mirror image formation either side of the rift is also compelling evidence.

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