Spong: "Why We Must Reclaim The Bible From Fundamentalists"

by leavingwt 87 Replies latest jw friends

  • NewChapter
    NewChapter

    Yeah I have NewChapter....they are much the same...written over a period of 300 years or so...as interesting as they are...I feel the same way about them....I think the gospel of Thomas is the earliest. That may even date before Sthe books in the NT.

    Still Thinking I think the same thing about them too, as far as their value. I just found it extremely interesting what they chose to leave out and took it as further evidence of power manipulation, not a new revelation. It helped me firm up my opinion that it is all manmade.

    NC

  • Caedes
    Caedes

    Personally I find fundamentalist theists are reluctant to give a straight answer to the question "how do you decide which parts of the bible are meant to be taken literally?"

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento
    Personally I find fundamentalist theists are reluctant to give a straight answer to the question "how do you decide which parts of the bible are meant to be taken literally?"

    The answer isn't that hard, the genre of the book shoudl dictate if it is to be taken literal AND concrete or if it is to be taken literal and "poetic" of if it was simply a "story to tella lesson".

    The problem is when doctrine is made by man and justified by scripture OUT OF CONTEXT with the genre of scripture.

    Genesis and the literal 6 day creation comes to mind.

  • Caedes
    Caedes

    Psac,

    The answer isn't that hard

    That must be why there are so few denominations!

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento
    That must be why there are so few denominations!

    Hey, I said that answer wasn't that hard, I didn't say ACCEPTING it was easy, LOL !

    I can see the vestted interest that some groups have to hold to THEIR way of interpreting scripture and I can see way others that don't agree with those views would separate.

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia
    I believe the Gospel of Thomas contains this statement: [Peter said], "Let Mary go away from us because women are not worthy of life." Jesus is reported as saying, "Lo, I shall lead her in order to make her a male, so that she too may become a living spirit, resembling you males. For every woman who makes herself male will enter into the kingdom of heaven."

    It also contains a statement attributed to Jesus: "Split wood; I am there. Lift up a stone, and you will find me there."

    I believe these statements were considered nonsensical and so contrary to the other sayings of Jesus and to the worldview of Judaism as to render it highly unlikely that they were actually statements of Jesus.

    Really? I find them very intimately connected to early Judaism and first century Christianity. The concept in the second passage is the omnipresence of God, which is certainly found in Judaism. For example: "Where can I go from your Spirit, or where can I flee from your presence? If I ascend to heaven, you are there; if I make my bed in Sheol, behold you are there" (Psalm 139:7-8), "Am I a God who is near, and not a God far off? Can a man hide himself in hiding places so I do not see him? Do I not fill the heavens and the earth?" (Jeremiah 23:23-24). There is parallel in Matthew 18:20: "For where two or three are gathered in my name, there I am in the midst of them". The Greek text of Thomas, in fact, combines logion 77 with 30, which is a version of the same saying: "Where there are three, they are with God, and where there is only one, I say, I am with that one. Lift up a stone, and you will find me there. Split a piece of wood, and I am there" (POxy 1.23-30). On the omnipresence of the Son and the divine indwelling: "All things have been created through him and for him, he is before all things, and in him all things hold together ... for God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him" (Colossians 1:15-18). The focus on wood and stone obviously reflects the OT polemic against idols (e.g. Habakkuk 2:18-20), and the pairing of lifting stones and splitting wood is found in Ecclesiastes 10:9. So the author is one who is apparently steeped in these OT traditions.

    As for the statement about Mary, this reflects the negative proto-gnostic view on marriage and childbirth, and as well as a polemic against Petrine (i.e. proto-orthodox) Christianity, by putting in Peter's mouth very sexist and hostile statements about Mary and women in general; in proto-orthodoxy women were increasingly excluded from teaching and positions of authority (evident clearly in the Pastoral letters which directly challenged proto-gnostics), whereas in much of gnosticism they had equal status because the division of the sexes is something based on the flesh not the spirit. In the ANE women were valued mainly in terms of their participation in marriage and procreation, and the gnostic view rejected this as perpetuating evil; "making herself male" for Mary would involve a rejection of traditional gender roles centered on procreation and adopting ministerial roles that for Peter would be reserved for men. Although Judaism was very traditional in terms of marriage and procreation, there was an impulse in early Christianity towards a higher calling eschewing marriage and procreation. A striking parallel to Thomas, logion 114 can be found in Matthew 19:10-22, in which Jesus likens celebacy to those who "make themselves eunuchs". This is essentially the same concept: Mary makes herself male, men make themselves eunuchs; in both cases the reference is to a personal rejection of marriage. It is also noteworthy that this canonical passage in Matthew also strikingly differs from the attitude in early Judaism, which viewed eunuchs as an abomination. A close parallel is also found in Thomas, logion 22: "When you make the two into one, when you make the inner like the outer, and the outer like the inner, and the upper like the lower, and when you make the male and the female into a single one, so that the male will not be male nor the female female ... then you will enter the Kingdom". There is an excellent parallel to this in Paul: "There is neither male nor female ... for you are all one in Christ Jesus" (Galatians 3:38). The concept is that there are no gender or other social distinctions in the spirit, only in the flesh. That this is held out to be the future destiny in the resurrection is implied in Matthew 22:30: "At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven". Proto-gnostics, and the book of Thomas in particular, had progressed from apocalyptic to realized eschatology (a similar theological development can be seen in John in comparison to the synoptic gospels), so what was once expected to be the future reality of Christians was now practiced in the here-and-now in the proto-gnostic Christian community (referenced in the polemic in 1 Timothy 4:3). So the concept in Thomas is a development further beyond what is found in the proto-orthodox canon, but it is intimately connected with ideas found in the NT itself.

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento

    I think that the issues in GOT is that, taken out of context, it cna seem to imply things that Jesus obviously would not have said.

    The comment of "split a peice of wood and I am there" taken out of context could imply "panatheism", that God is Nature.

    As for the comment i regards to Mary, it can seem to imply that women are inferiour and must become "males" to inherit Heaven.

    It is obvious as to why the GOT would have been taken as less authoritive than the 4 gospels that were universally recognised as authentic.

    If I recall, the GOT was orgianally syriac, yes?

  • wobble
    wobble

    Thanks Leo,as usual you shine a bright light on what was darkness to us mere mortals !

    I have been interested for a long time in the early divergences that took place, and it seems to me that the various "schools" and writings that arose as a response to Jesus are definite proof,not just of his historicity, but the power of his presence (charisma) and teaching.

    I still feel too, that the basic premise of the thread title is a good one, "reclaim the bible" and then do as you have done, study the contempory literature alongside it, we certainly then get a much different view of how the christian religion develpoped.

    The sad thing is that we probably have very little of the thought and writings of the time that has come down to us, only what the church wnted us to have, but discoveries such as Nag Hammadi may happen in the future and spread more light on this fascinating time.

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    Well, the same could be said about things in the canonical gospels when taken out of context. The passage about eunuchs, for instance, was reportedly misunderstood by Origen to mean that he literally had to "become a eunuch". He castrated himself. There are many other "hard sayings" of Jesus in the canonical tradition.

    Misogyny was found everywhere in the ANE, especially in the Bible. The worldview of Thomas however holds that true equality in the spirit can exist and that in the Kingdom distinctions between male and female are erased. This is not a foreign concept to early Christianity; something very similar appears in Paul. One main difference is that the proto-gnostics believed that this state of affairs can be obtained in the present, whereas for Paul glorification of the spirit would wait until the resurrection. It is important to recognize, as I stated, that Peter appears in Thomas and in other gnostic works as a foil, as the guy who always gets things wrong, and who disbelieves Mary and her teaching authority. This interestingly contrasts with how Thomas is represented in the canonical tradition, as the guy who also got things wrong and who doubted the Lord. The views attributed to Peter do not necessarily represent the views of the Thomasine community.

    Thomas has a Syrian provenance, mostly likely centered around Edessa. Matthew and the Didache also likely have a Syrian provenance, but associated with Antioch instead. The two communities may have been in conflict in the late first century AD. Although in later gnosticism, Peter came to represent the Catholic orthodox church as a whole based in Rome (which viewed itself as founded by Peter), it was Antiochene Christianity that had a strong connection with Peter in the first century (as seen in Galatians 2:11 and later Ebionite works like the Itinerary of Peter and the Kerygma Petrou), and it is the gospel of Matthew that views Peter as given the keys of the kingdom of heaven in the Caesarea Philippi story (16:13-20). A version of the same story appears in Thomas, logion 13, wherein Peter gives the incorrect answer and Thomas was the one who received special privilege. It is also clear from the text of Matthew that the implied community was one that was in conflict with both Pharisees (cf. ch. 23) and antinomian Christians who were no longer Torah-observant (cf. ch. 6-7). The latter may well have included Thomasine Christians, considering the antinomianism common to proto-gnostics.

    I don't think there is any clear evidence the gospel was written in Syriac (Aramaic). The Greek text may well have been original.

    The gospel did not enter the canonical tradition because it arose and was accepted in a different Christian community than the one that developed the four-gospel canon. The proto-orthodox gospel canon arose very early, attested first in Justin Martyr (c. 150 AD), and possibly by Papias of Hierapolis a decade or two earlier. Similarly, certain books canonical in orthodox (Western) Christianity, such as the general epistles, were not accepted as part of the Syrian Nestorian canon.

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento
    Well, the same could be said about things in the canonical gospels when taken out of context. The passage about eunuchs, for instance, was reportedly misunderstood by Origen to mean that he literally had to "become a eunuch". He castrated himself.

    Indeed, not one of his more intelligent moves, LOL !

    Misogyny was found everywhere in the ANE, especially in the Bible. The worldview of Thomas however holds that true equality in the spirit can exist and that in the Kingdom distinctions between male and female are erased. This is not a foreign concept to early Christianity; something very similar appears in Paul. One main difference is that the proto-gnostics believed that this state of affairs can be obtained in the present, whereas for Paul glorification of the spirit would wait until the resurrection. It is important to recognize, as I stated, that Peter appears in Thomas and in other gnostic works as a foil, as the guy who always gets things wrong, and who disbelieves Mary and her teaching authority. This interestingly contrasts with how Thomas is represented in the canonical tradition, as the guy who also got things wrong and who doubted the Lord. The views attributed to Peter do not necessarily represent the views of the Thomasine community.

    A very valid point about Thomas VS Peter.

    If I recall correctly, in the GOJ, it is Thomas that makes THE statement of Christ being God, as opposed to Peter's statement of Christ being the son of God in the synoptics. While John paints him as doubtful, he also paints him as the first to make such a bold and impacting statement.

    I recall reading that one view was that the GOT was based on the "diatersson" (sp?).

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