That's a lot of picking and choosing NewChapter....my head is a spin...
Spong: "Why We Must Reclaim The Bible From Fundamentalists"
by leavingwt 87 Replies latest jw friends
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sizemik
Christ never said follow the bible... he said follow ME.
See . . . this is a distinction I can't make. All that we know about Christ and his teachings come from the bible. So following Christ is following the bible. Without the so-called holy writings . . . we would have no idea who this man was, what he taught, or if he even existed. All we have is other peoples word for it . . . in the bible . . . to follow.
Like all who reputedly followed him in the first century . . . I need a miracle or two . . . something more reliable than a human assertion.
You can choose to believe whatever you want to believe.
That's the bottom line . . . and that's generally what everybody does . . . but it's all human assertion. Some like what others have said . . . some make up their own version. It's just like the free market . . . supply and demand. Buy what ever you like as long as you can afford it. Jump into a cab and say "follow that car" . . . just like the movies (I've always wanted to do that BTW).
So what makes Spong any different? . . .
The gospels were written 40 -70 years after the crucifixion, which means that most of what we read about Jesus in the Bible was handed down orally for two to three generations before one word of it achieved written form.
If you can't see the flaws in that assertion . . . you should have stayed in school longer. But then again . . .
At the same time secular critics attack what Christian scholars know is nonsensical about both the Bible and Christianity and act as if they have discovered something new.
So don't bother criticising . . . we already know it's bullshit. I guess school was a waste of time after all.
He's an attention whore with a silver tongue . . . like most religionists . . . and knows where to find a listening audience.
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wobble
If you get in a Cab in London and say "follow that car!" you will get a slow turn round of the driver's head, follwed by "Wot car?" by which time the quarry is half way across the city, but if you just want to say it , be careful you could get the smartass Cabbie who hares off after any old car and runs you up a huge bill.
Anyway, I double dare ya to try it !
As for Spong I agree, but he is readable in a way, although I see the same faults with his logic, as to the basic concept of the thread title, it would be good if the Bible were taken away from all believers from the point of view of it being somehow true, and it became what it really is, a somewhat curious but nevertheless fascinating collection of literature, because it is nothing more than that.
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sizemik
be careful you could get the smartass Cabbie who hares off after any old car and runs you up a huge bill.
LOL . . . sounds a bit like some contemporary Christians.
Spong is pretty intelligent. But he's also an old man who spent his whole life in religious spheres (albeit scholastic) on the premise that Christianity has relevance and value in some form. Like old JW GB members . . . his cognitive dissonance would never allow him to draw the conclusion that it's all just a fascinating collection of literature . . . and that he's devoted his life to something with no greater meaning than that. Therefore he has to assign it his own meaning while ignoring contradiction in advance. For example . . .
The book of Jonah is seen as a readable mythological tale, deliberately designed to hook its audience emotionally in order to break them out of the bondage of prejudice.
Bondage to prejudice? A baby is born without prejudice . . . it has to learn this attitude and behavior. Ironically, much of the prejudice in this world finds it's roots in religion . . . and the bible in particular. You only need to look at the connections in the American south and South Africa for a start. All because God's right hand man Noah got himself plastered, tossed his kit off, and Ham "saw his nakedness" . . . whatever that means.
He's as much trying to give his own life meaning as ancient writings. Being readable just makes him a well-paved dead end. The journey may be comfortable . . . but it still isn't going anywhere. But it probably sells books . . . and that's what makes it worthwhile . . . just ask the WTS.
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NewChapter
You only need to look at the connections in the American south
It makes my head spin Size---the Bible Belt (that's what we call it), and yet the most prejudice area of the country. They will deny it, but outsiders can see it quickly. The danger of the bible is it can be used to justify anything--and in the process allow it's followers to feel righteous. Not that all Christians use it that way, but it certainly serves tiny minds well when they use it as such.
NC
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designs
Yep, Spong spent his life chasing a dream like the GB and others. Maybe his books will help in having people begin asking the real questions about Christianity.
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still thinking
I think that really is the point designs....the more I read, the more I question.
When you have someone like Spong making his assertions about the bible you question what he says...but whilst doing that you question the very basics of religious belief and religion. Gotta be worth a read, if only to make you think and open your mind.
sizemik...I agree...If the bible was never written would we even have heard about Christ/Jesus? Probably not. There is word of mouth of course, but just imagine how much the stories would have changed by now.
The generations he referred to probably weren't in the first 40 - 50 years....that makes no sense... most of the bible NT is dated from 50 - 300 years after Jesus death...so there you have the generations...And imagine how much had already been added to and alterered. Do we honestly believe that the story would be exactly the same as the original? Seems more probable to me that stories would be manipulated to say what people want them to say. With a bit of truth thrown in.
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NewChapter
Have you read any of the Gnostic writings ST? Interesting because they are not included in the bible---but why? Well I read some about Mary Magdelene, and she was not presented as some repentant whore---nope---she was a favorite and the male apostles were jealous. So WHY were those books left out? LOL
NC
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still thinking
Yeah I have NewChapter....they are much the same...written over a period of 300 years or so...as interesting as they are...I feel the same way about them....I think the gospel of Thomas is the earliest. That may even date before the books in the NT.
When you compare Thomas with how he is written about in the NT...ie...doubting Thomas...you have to wonder who is actually telling the truth. Because his versions of things make him nothing like the NT portray him. I suspect a bit of electioneering going on.
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Ding
I believe the Gospel of Thomas contains this statement: "Let Mary go away from us because women are not worthy of life." Jesus is reported as saying, "Lo, I shall lead her in order to make her a male, so that she too may become a living spirit, resembling you males. For every woman who makes herself male will enter into the kingdom of heaven."
It also contains a statement attributed to Jesus: "Split wood; I am there. Lift up a stone, and you will find me there."
I believe these statements were considered nonsensical and so contrary to the other sayings of Jesus and to the worldview of Judaism as to render it highly unlikely that they were actually statements of Jesus.