Christians Please Explain

by AK - Jeff 134 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  still thinking

  AK-Jeff....there is no getting around it that we tend to believe in the God of our culture...Maybe a bit less in recent times because we have more choice and knowlege available to us. So we are able to decide for ourselves what or whom we believe in.

  This in itself causes problems doesn't it? I am finding...the more I learn...the more confused I get. I am getting to the point where I too would appreciate some sort of revelation because it is doing my head in.

  I still have faith in God...but I am no longer sure who that God really is. Maybe it is impossible to know that for sure, maybe christ came to show us, maybe many people have come to show us...I'm still trying to figure it out.
• 

  poopsiecakes

  so I have a few questions too...

  If humans were created by a vastly superior higher power, why weren’t we created as a more advanced society? History has shown that we have built on knowledge and grown in understanding of basic fundamentals like math, science and medicine but why weren’t people created with this in the first place? We humans can create and develop computers now with vast stores of knowledge and programmed to automatically ‘know’ things and this is because people have learned how to do this over decades of trial and error. The knowledge was always there, we just hadn’t tapped into it yet and nobody today would ever design or create a computer using knowledge from the 1950’s because we're more advanced than that. We also would never think of treating diseases the way they did in the Middle Ages. We know better and teaching those methods of treatment would be counter-productive to society and extremely irresponsible.

  If there truly is a higher power who already has all of the smarts to know science, math and medicine and how all of that ties into general health and wellbeing, why not create us that way from the get go and let people learn more from that higher starting point? Why create a primitive species in the first place? Just for shits & giggles? Just to have a lab experiment to run us through mazes and watch to see if we ever find the cheese? Why was the bar set so low? Why create us with an infinite number of questions and almost no answers that we had to figure out on our own over the course of thousands and thousands of years? Why did we have to muddle through millennia of wars and disease and subjugation of women and different races and all of the hell that put those people through? Not to mention the residual effects that reach down to our day. Surely, creating people with better fundamentals would have prevented a lot of that suffering and an entity with all of that knowledge would know this.

  When I believed in God and creation, I believed in the Genesis account and believed what I was taught – that humans were created perfect and sin did them in, that wars and disease were never a part of this perfect creation and were never supposed to be. This seems to be a very fairy tale explanation now that I’ve flicked on my critical thinking switch, and there far are too many holes in the Genesis account for me to ever take it literally again. But the other explanation – that God used evolution and created primitive life – seems even worse somehow and incomprehensible. And when I say incomprehensible, I mean in the sense that this entity merits worship of any kind.

  I hope this doesn't offend anyone - that's certainly not my goal here, just an example of why I think the way I do and how it was impossible (for me) to stop pulling at the thread.
• 

  still thinking

  Poopsie....you have some valid points.

  If you did believe in a God, would you consider a Gnostic type of God more realisic? A god that created a world out of his own desires...an inferior god that does not acknowledge a superior father and demands worship at all costs or punishment is metered out...a god that does not reflect the qualities presented by Jesus in the NT? In other words, the possibility that there is a true God and not the one that the bible depicts as being true. Just asking for your perspective.

  sizemik....you may have a point....maybe we do need to choose our god wisely...just a thought
• 

  tec

  I do not believe that I EVER stated that I was the 'all knowing atheist' as has been asserted in this thread. I am an atheist. I am an atheist because I find the evidence for ANY GOD totally lacking. I suppose that at times I view the deluded with pity - but mostly I view them

  as pawns in cruel game that wastes lives. Still, that is a far cry from insisting that MY VIEW is the ONLY VIEW.

  Can you see that the two statements in here that are at odds with one another?

  Um... also, if it's your view or a deluded view... then isn't that the same thing as there being ONLY your view?

  Just wondered if you could see that.

  I know I didn't attack you. I didn't even realize you were asking for believers to provide evidence for God. (lack of proof I believe you mentioned in your op, to which you are correct) I just thought you were venting about the attitude of the two people and their conversation. Like I said, the conversation is as appaling to me (a believer) as to you (an atheist).

  Okay, then... even though I think we've had this conversation before:

  Evidence for God:

  - Christ

  - witness accounts (written, some in the bible, some not)... heresay, but still evidence.

  - personal revelation/first-hand witness accounts from living people/prayers answered... but I understand that many of these are contradictory, so you cannot base your own faith on them. Nor should you. But perhaps they might tweak someone's curiosity and faith just enough to go and ask (Christ, God) for themselves.

  - the very fact that belief in God/gods/goddesses/spirits/etc, has been around since the beginning of time, and in every culture - even those isolated - is evidence. Even the similarities spread between religions show a single source. The need in people, the search for something that is real - even if we don't fully understand what that something is.

  Anyway, those are some sources of evidence for me. The only one I need to believe in God is Christ, but the rest add to that.

  Peace,

  Tammy
• 

  tec

  Poopsie, interesting points!

  Maybe it can't work that way with living beings. Maybe the knowledge has to be earned, or it doesn't mean anything, and is treated carelessly?

  Just some thoughts.

  Peace,

  Tammy
• 

  Mary

  Jeff, I'm sorry if you felt that I attacked you. But you've got to admit that since you've 'switched sides', you seem to be incredibly intolerant of anything other than atheism. The fact that you said it makes you "sick to your stomach" at the thought of any human worshipping some sort of God and apparently think that anyone who does so is lacking in intelligence far behind your "mentally retarded cousin" who gave up on the Easter Bunny.

  I agree partially with your view in that fundamental Xtians (or fundies from any other religious group) have some crazy-assed narrow views. And I toyed with atheism myself both after my brother died and after my brother in law died as I simply could not comprehend how any God of love could allow us to have to endure such shit on a continual basis. While I no longer believe in the God of the bible, I think it makes more sense to me that something or someone started it all and more or less left us to shift for ourselves. I could be wrong, but I could also be right.

  What I'm suggesting to you is not that you give up your beliefs, but that you should not attack others on the board who sincerely still believe in something spiritual. I do that with my JW family, simply because they don't shun me. Yes, the board can get antsy sometimes when we all view our opinions, but you just seem bent on sneering at anyone who still believes in God or a creator of some sort and that is what some find so offensive. There is no "proof" for God; it's mostly circumstantial evidence so for you to demand 'scientific evidence' for God....well, apparently unless God shows up at your doorstep, you're not going to believe he/she exists. And that's okay. But don't demean others who chose to have a faith in something beyond this world. I think you're a better person than that.

  And yes I still love you.
• 

  N.drew

  In a thousand years if this transcript survives and someone might be interested in deciphering it, there is a sentence in your post that can be understood two very different ways. poopsiecakes

  The first time I read it it sounds like "different races" is something that had to be "muddled through", not what you meant to say "the subjugation of races" that had to be muddled through. And I know English, someone might not and see two very different points and wonder.

  Why create us with an infinite number of questions and almost no answers that we had to figure out on our own over the course of thousands and thousands of years? Why did we have to muddle through millennia of wars and disease and subjugationof women and different races and all of the hell that put those people through? Not to mention the residual effects that reach down to our day. Surely, creating people with better fundamentals would have prevented a lot of that suffering and an entity with all of that knowledge would know this.
• 

  N.drew

  The reason why I shall bring it up, it is not important, but understanding is important and the reason why God does not speak beyond what Jesus and the Bible reveals, because would we understand?

  And another thing; there are fathers on this web. Do they really think that they would be happy to insert relative information and well being into their children if it were possible? Or will they be happy to let the child have his journey and adventure?

  And don't forget the rocks. (that's a riddle)
• 

  N.drew

  If God "Shows up at your doorstep"

  Even then I am sure as sure that there are people who will still doubt.
• 

  AGuest

  Interesting observation, dear Mary (peace to you!). As someone else (maybe you?) pointed out... folks tend to go to both extremes. Certainly, the folks having the conversation did. While I found their interchange reprehensible, I marveled that "Christ" (heck, even "Jesus") didn't seem to even occur in the conversation... but "the Bible" did. Talk about your golden calf! Biggest one since Sinai, that.

  since you've 'switched sides', you seem to be incredibly intolerant of anything other than atheism.

  This is very real phenomenon among humans. Some refer to it as the "reformed whore" syndrome. I like to call it the "Larry Hagman" syndrome (you know, after his stint of going all out against smokers when he [finally] stopped because his father had/died of cancer - even ridiculously so, sometimes making a total fool of himself in public). Sadly, even Mr. Hagman wasn't able to avoid cancer altogether - he recently announced he has liver cancer...

  I find it fascinating, though, just how far out there some go... apparently forgetting "where" they were just a short time ago. Reminds me of "newbie" JWs. Ah, well... it is the nature of man, is it not... to look in the mirror, point the finger, and scream "oh my gawd!"... while he yet exists in his own sin (because he refused to look in the mirror, not only at what he is... but what he WAS!)?

  Another example why, if given the choice, I wouldn't... couldn't... choose atheism: nothing in its manifestation says to ME that there is no God... or that disbelieving makes one a "better" (or even more intelligent) person than one who believes. To the contrary, it consistently... and repeatedly... makes me give thanks that there IS a God... and that He gave me not only the brain... but heart and spirit... that I have.

  Again, peace to you!

  A slave of Christ,

  SA