Islam More Lenient on Apostates than the WTBTS!

by 00DAD 47 Replies latest watchtower scandals

  • 00DAD
    00DAD

    Islam More Lenient on Apostates than the WTBTS!

    This morning I came across this thought provoking comment in a CNN news article:

    Harris Zafar, national spokesperson of the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community USA, does not mince words on the subject, stating in a Huffington Post opinion piece that "Islam prescribes absolutely no punishment for apostasy."

    "Chapter two of the Holy Quran emphatically denies this possibility, stating 'there shall be no compulsion in religion," writes Zafar. "This is an unambiguous declaration protecting freedom of conscience and choice." - Emphasis added

    http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2011/10/07/pastors-possible-execution-reveals-nuances-of-islamic-law/?hpt=hp_t2

    It's interesting to compare this to the WTBTS' official treatment of apostates. Imagine, just imagine, if the WTBTS prescribed "absolutely no punishment for apostasy"! Wow, how different things would be ...

    Of course, the truth is that the WT labels are lot of different things as "apostasy" because of their preferred punishment, rather than the other way around. They WANT to punish and shun anyone that dissents or shows any desire to be free of their restrictions of "conscience and choice". IT'S A CONTROL THING!

    Since apostates can be shunned, they label anyone an "apostate" that they want to shun. But if they truly practiced "freedom of choice" with "absolutely no punishment for apostasy" then there really wouldn't be much motivation to label anyone an apostate except perhaps those few that really fit the bill. How many would that be? Not many I'd guess!

    That being said, there are of course still many hard-core "True Believer" muslims that see things differently than Mr. Zafar, as the particular issue that prompted the CNN article make obvious.

    Some things to think about, no?

  • Justitia Themis
    Justitia Themis

    The whole article is worth reading, so I am posting it. Professor Lombardi is a constitutional and Sharia law professor at my school. What the article shows is the diversity of thought in Islam, which is why it is inaccurate to ever say, "Islam teaches this, or Muslims believe that." SOME in Islam might teach this or believe that, just like SOME christians take blood and others will not.

    It's also incorrect to say that "True Believer" Muslims embrace the most conservative views. Those who are more lenient are just as devout as the others; they just believe differently.

    As far as the comparison to the WTBTS and apostacy, some in Islam would be more tolerant, others would not.

    Pastor's possible execution reveals nuances of Islamic law

    By Dan Merica, CNN

    (CNN) – The possible hanging of Pastor Youcef Nadarkhani for converting from Islam to Christianity has exposed a division among Islamic jurists on whether Iran would be violating Islamic law by carrying out the execution.

    According to some of these scholars, the Quran not only outlaws the death penalty for the charge of apostasy, but under Sharia law, conversion from Islam is not a punishable offense at all.

    "Instead, it says on a number of occasions that God prefers and even demands that people believe in Him, but that He will handle rejection of such belief by punishing them in the afterworld," wrote Intisar Rabb, an assistant professor of law at Boston College and a faculty affiliate in research at Harvard Law School, in an e-mail to CNN.

    But Rabb also acknowledges that there is a more nuanced view to Islamic law, too.

    Clark Lombardi, an associate professor of law at the University of Washington, said there is more room for interpretation because the Quran is not the only source of Islamic law.

    "Most Muslims look past the Quran and say the Quran needs to be looked at in the practice of the Prophet. So they look to see what rules the prophet laid down," Lombardi said.

    And, according to Lombardi, if you look at literature about the life of Mohammed, "then apostasy is clearly something very bad. And there are examples of apostates being punished."

    What emerges from this is a complicated division between whether apostasy is punishable in the first place and, if it is punishable, for what reason.

    "Most Muslims, most but not all, believe that apostasy is a deep and terrible sin," Lombardi said. "The question of whether the state should punish deep and terrible sins is in fact something that Muslims do disagree about."

    Nadarkhani, the leader of a network of Christian house churches in Iran, was first convicted of apostasy in November 2010, a charge he subsequently appealed. Though news reports from Iran have indicated the pastor is now charged with "security related crimes" and is no longer charged with apostasy, briefs obtained by CNN from the 2010 Supreme Court case show the pastor's original charge was solely apostasy.

    "He (Nadarkhani) has stated that he is a Christian and no longer Muslim," states the Supreme Court brief. "During many sessions in court with the presence of his attorney and a judge, he has been sentenced to execution by hanging according to article 8 of Tahrir - olvasileh."

    Harris Zafar, national spokesperson of the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community USA, does not mince words on the subject, stating in a Huffington Post opinion piece that "Islam prescribes absolutely no punishment for apostasy."

    "Chapter two of the Holy Quran emphatically denies this possibility, stating 'there shall be no compulsion in religion," writes Zafar. "This is an unambiguous declaration protecting freedom of conscience and choice."

    Mohammad Fadel, associate professor of law at University of Toronto, said that there is a difference, though, between just being a nonbeliever and being someone who is actively preaching a religion other than Islam. Fadel said Nadarkhani's preaching "may be viewed as a kind of treasonous comment."

    "Even for people who reject Islam religiously, many still identify them with the religion culturally, even if they aren't religious," Fadel said.

    According to Rabb, the idea for punishing apostasy stems from medieval times, when your religious affiliation was the basis for your citizenship. Renouncing your faith was also announcing your intent to no longer regard yourself a citizen of that community - in effect, treason.

    But as time went on, your religious affiliation is no longer closely tied to your citizenship. "Now, we have an era of territory-based citizenship," Rabb wrote.

    "The problem in the modern period is that contemporary states apply medieval rules in unreflective ways that do not often match the classical Islamic legal tradition to which they are trying to adhere," wrote Rabb.

    But Lombardi points out that Iran is formally known as the Islamic Republic of Iran and "being Muslim is part of full citizenship in Iran." Though he couldn't speak for the Iranian justice system, he said there are two grounds for which Iran could give to put Nadarkhani to death for apostasy.

    "One of them would be to say traditionally in Shiite Islam, people have interpreted the scripture for apostates to be put to death," Lombardi said. "The other one is that people who apostatize have committed a sin and they are real threat to the Muslim community and as a threat, they are punishable as someone who is a traitor to the country."

    The website islawmix, a project through the Berkman Center for Internet and Society at Harvard University, was created to be an authoritarian voice on the nuances in Islamic law.
    Made up of 13 scholars and founded by Rabb, along with Umbreen Bhatti and Kaizar Campwala, the website looks to connect "news readers, media producers, and legal scholars with credible, authoritative information about trends in Islamic law."

    Bhatti, a practicing civil rights lawyer, said the nuances of Islamic law are not unique; the same sort of nuanced opinions are regularly found in American law.

    "The reality is the 13 scholars on our sites could give you a variety of different responses," Bhatti said. Islamic law has a "rich legal tradition and it is important for us to not convey something definitive or to suggest there is one answer."

    The overriding opinion of each scholar was simple - the complication of Islamic law makes it somewhat difficult to predict what Iran will do.

    Lombardi recalled a story in Afghanistan, where a man's neighbors hauled him to court for leaving Islam.

    "The judge takes a look and says this person is an apostate and therefore the crime should be putting them to death," Lombardi said. "But then the judge said, Islam is such great religion, you could have to be crazy to have to convert from Islam. And therefore, I think this person should get off on ground of insanity."

    Moral of the story, according to Lombardi: "There are all sorts of grounds for pardoning someone."

  • Dudu
    Dudu

    Is so interesting to see how people manipulate the Holy Books to their own selfish purposes .... Thats what i ve seen when politics and religion and business mix .... well somehow they are always mix ...

  • 00DAD
    00DAD

    Justitia Themis, thanks for responding and adding your comments. Of course you're right that there is a wide-range beliefs among Muslims. The article clearly discusses the disagreement among muslims over the issue of how to treat apostates.

    However my post was specifically in response to Mr. Zafar's comments, which is of course HIS particular take on the thing. The fact that there is diversity in belief among muslims (or many other belief systems for that matter) is both obvious and ironic. Why, because no diversity is allowed among JWs. They are completely intolerant on the subject. There cannot even be a discussion about having the discussion!

    Any dissension or even a doubt expressed can result in an individual being branded as a heretic and an apostate with the resulting punishment. That being said, I agree with you that it "it is inaccurate to ever say, 'Islam teaches this, or Muslims believe this.'" However, I must point out that your quarrel is not with me, but should be with any of the talking-heads quoted in the article that expressed their viewpoints as fact. Again, I merely focused on the one quote by Mr. Zafar as one which stands in stark contrast to the practices of the WTBTS. This is after all the Jehovah's Witness Network blog!

    Finally, regarding the "True Believer" reference, it seems you missed my point of that reference. Whenever I hear people use the term "True Believer" it is ALWAYS in reference to extremists of whatever is the particular group being discussed. I find the term is used a lot in the popular media in this sense, whether it is of a religious or political zealot. Check out this definition from the Random House Unabridged Dictionary:

    1. a person who has been thoroughly convinced of something.
    2. a fanatic, esp. a religious or political one.

    I can't be absolutely sure, but the expression seems to come from the 1951 social psychology book by Eric Hoffer, The True Believer: Thoughts On The Nature Of Mass Movements, which discusses the psychological causes of fanaticism.

    In reference to that, you might find these links interesting:

    Cheers,

    Daniel

  • wobble
    wobble

    Depends where you are, Pakistan was going to put to death a guy who had left islam for a christian religion just aweek or so ago,their blasphemy laws prescribe the death sentence.

    They were about to do what the WT would love to be allowed to do, but I think they have held off because of International opinion, but I wuld not be too confident that you will always get a benevolent judgement if you live in an Islamic state.

  • Justitia Themis
    Justitia Themis

    I was a JW for over 40 years, so I agree with you regarding JWs. I simply addressing the error in the comparison. It needs to be group-to-group and subset-to-subset. You compared group (Islam) to subset (JWs/subset of Christianity).

    Yes, the popular media (no great example to follow) uses "True Believer" has a pejorative. However, the first and primary definition you posted from Random House is the more correct one, which is why it is listed as #1. The term goes to the amount of passion a person has for his/her beliefs, not the definition of the belief. There are "True Believer" Muslim's who will just as zealously (zealot) and rabidly defend their position that apostacy does not merit the death sentence as those who say it does.

    The "True Believer Syndrome" describes those who insist on believing despite something being debunked...a syndrome from which some would say every religous person suffers.

    As far as the "talking-heads," some of them are actually "legal experts" who are contracted with the State Department. ; )

    As I said, I agree with your general point that JWs suck.

  • JWdaughter
    JWdaughter

    I think you all need to realize one thing-that what some Muslims believe and what most Muslims do, have nothing to do with each other. Most educated Muslims debate on this issue-they would never begin to think it was something to 'enforce'. The fact is that there are many many supposedly ex-Muslim people going all over the planet saying things about Islam, the Prophet(pbuh), etc-and they live to catch their next plane and get their next speaking fee. Look at that Ali Kursi(hope I got the name right). She speaks out all the time, is very public, as it the Caner brothers-one of them at least is/was the president of Liberty University-and he claims to be(as his ex brother) ex Muslim. They are Christians and preach a lot of incendiary things. There was a prominent Muslim scholar that recently converted to Christianity or atheism(I forget which)-and is alive to talk about it.

    There are nuts that take things into their own hands, but that happens everywhere, with and without religion being involved-some guy just killed a little girl because he was annoyed with her-so go figure. I think that many use Islam as excuse, but mostly it is old fashioned revenge.

  • 00DAD
    00DAD

    JT, your interest in law is apparent.

    Apparently my dis-interest is not, so allow me to make it so.

    I was trying to make a point, not start an argument. Not interested. Been there, done that. For example, the expressions "talking-heads" and "legal experts" are not mutually exclusive terms, but for reason you seem to think they are. FYI: I read the article, yes the entire article. I was trying to make a specific point drawing a specific contrast between one persons opinion and the position of the WTBTS. That is why I only quoted the one statement. I did NOT one to stray off topic into the various interpretations of the Quran and/or Islamic Law. (BTW, you cannot compare apples-to-apples here anyway, because, as you noted, Islam is a broad group of beliefs comprised by many sects. JW tolerate no sectarianism. Which brings up another thread ...)

    Perhaps you were led astray from the point I was attempting to make due to the ambiguity of my topic title. I suppose in retrospect, I should have ended the title with a question mark instead: Islam More Lenient on Apostates than the WTBTS? Please accept my humble apologies.

    However, you must realize that headlines and titles are like that. That being said, the title of the article in question is equally problematic. I posit that instead of reading, "Pastor's possible execution reveals nuances of Islamic law" it should read something more like:

    "Pastor's possible execution reveals irreconcilable conflict within Islam due to diverse and contradictory interpretations of Islamic law - man likely to be put to death because the 'leaders and experts' of that religion cannot agree on what 'apostasy' is or how it should be dealt with"

    Not a good sound bite, but maybe that's just me.

    How's life over in Uzbekistan?

    Cheers,

    Daniel

  • Anony Mous
    Anony Mous

    Read the Awake of July 2009 p28, 29, it's also bible based advice. Both the Koran and the Bible can be interpreted any way you want to make the religions based upon it look. You can both be pro- and against- gay, marriage, rape, murder, war, child molestation, abortion, capital punishment etc. etc.

    If based on the same book(s) you believe in you can justify morally bad things, maybe you shouldn't accept those things without question.

  • Justitia Themis
    Justitia Themis

    BTW, you cannot compare apples-to-apples here anyway, because, as you noted, Islam is a broad group of beliefs comprised by many sects. JW tolerate no sectarianism.

    Incorrect. Allow me to do it for you: Ahmadiyya Muslim's [Islamic sect] More Lenient on Apostates than the WTBTS [Christian sect]!

    The error you are making--grouping all Islamic sects into one--is the root of many of the difficulties between the East and the West; it's not just semantics...or law.

    I didn't know we were arguing. Why do you view this as arguing? Because I alerted you to a valid error in your comparison?

    Perhaps you were led astray from the point I was attempting to make due to the ambiguity of my topic title.

    I believe I have stated repeatedly that I get your point: JWs suck.

    Uzbekistan is great; thanks for asking.

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