Arguing with a Russellite

by Lunatic Faith 13 Replies latest jw friends

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  Lunatic Faith

  I posted a blog yesterday regarding some of the occult images used by the Watchtower society. www.lunaticfaith.wordpress.com

  I got an interesting response today from an apparent Russellite. I have never run into these people so I was surprised at his vehement defense of Russell. Here is what he said:

  I am not with the Jehovah's Witnesses; I am a Bible student as was Charles Taze Russell.

  Charles Taze Russell was never a member of the Jehovah's Witnesses organization; he did not believe in such an organization, and he preached against such sectarianism and authoritarianism. He also preached against similar "Armageddon" teachings that existed in his day. Indeed, the message Russell preached concerning "Armageddon" and the ransom for all is almost the opposite of that preached by the Jehovah's Witnesses. The true founder of the Jehovah's Witnesses organization - and its message of eternal doom for all outside its organization - was Joseph Rutherford.

  Russell was never a member of the Freemasons' organization, was not involved in "the occult", Satanism, spirtism, etc. His Biblical usage of "Watch Tower" had nothing at all to do with the worship of any false gods or godessses. His Biblical usage of the cross and crown symbolism had nothing at all to do with the Freemasons.Russell did not have a magazine called "Golden Age" (Rutherford introduced that magazine after Russell died)j, although he did borrow the term of "the ancients" to illustrate what Paul wrote of, that the groaning creation - the whole world of mankind - is [ignorantly] waiting for the manifestation of the sons of God. (Romans 8:19-22) Russell certainly did not use that term to condone the views of any of the heathen.

  Man, indeed, being condemned through the sin of Adam, and subjected to vanity by God, cannot produce a new creation, a human creation that is not under the subjection of the present sun of vanity. No man can make himself straight. God could, however, produce a new creation (Jesus) who is the sun of righteousness. One can be made straight (justified) through faith in Jesus. - Ecclesiastes 1:2,9-15; Acts 13:39; Romans 2:13; 3:20-28; 5:12-19; 8:19-22;

  What do you think? Please feel free to comment on my blog if you have a response for him. I remember reading of Russells apocalyptic visions (most recently, I think, in Crisis of Conscience) but do not think the poster would respect that reference. As to masonic, the cross and crown are masonic. Duh! I saw one outside a masonic lodge not two months ago. What else could it mean?
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  IsaacJ22

  There used to be a Russellite plaguing the net who threatened to sue anyone who posted anything online that contradicted his view of Russell. He would pounce on anyone, including big sites like Wikipedia. So be a bit cautious about this. It might be the same guy.

  He might be an unhinged gas bag, but you never know.
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  jwfacts

  The response you received is actually quite correct.

  Russell never was a Jehovah's Witness. The term was introduced by Rutherford in 1931. Russell also wrote against organisation, particularly when he first formed released the Watchtower.

  Russell did not teach that everyone would die at Armageddon. In fact, he originally said that Armageddon started in 1874 and was a period of civil unrest. It was Rutherford that introduced the idea that only JWs will survive and everyone else die at Armageddon.

  There is a lot of debate over whether Russell was a Freemason. I personally do not think he was. He seemed to be very interested in them, but most of his ideas came from the Second Adventists, that used a lot of Freemasonry symbols. http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/davinci-freemason.php shows a lot of the symbols that he used, and there is parallels with a lot of Pagan symbols. However, it is hard to know Russell's intentions here. Since these were borrowed from the Adventist movement, he may not have even been aware of the pagan aspects.

  I am in no way trying to justify Russell, as I think he was ecentric and conceited, and put in place the foundations for a very successful cult. However, the source and motives of his material are difficult to prove, and so his followers, such as Bible Students and Russellites are able to dismiss the connections.
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  Lied2NoMore

  i like how inside the cover of each WT they say the rag has been published by JW's since 1879. JW's didn't exist in 1879. I began one of my service mtg parts noting this and got some heads to raise quickly!
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  reslight2

  I am not a Russellite; I am a Bible student. I cannot imagine a truly consecrated Christian Bible student threatening to sue anyone who posted anything that the Bible student disagreed with.

  http://ctr.reslight.net
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  reslight2

  Russell, up until a year before he died, was still preaching against sectarianism. As late as 1915 (just before his death in 1916) he was teaching the following:

  The Lord in Heaven records as members of His true Church all the saintly - whether Roman Catholics, Anglican Catholics, Greek Catholics, Baptists, Methodists, or Presbyterians, etc. -- and none others.

  Have we not here the one Church, catholic, universal, the only Church which the Bible recognizes? In the past we have been too narrow and have supposed that God was as narrow as ourselves. It was on this account that Presbyterians, Roman Catholics, Anglicans, Baptists, Methodists persecuted and were persecuted, each thinking itself the true Church. Are we not all getting broader conceptions of our God and of His Church? Do we not see that we were mistaken in calling the outward organization the Church of Christ instead of remembering that the Lord alone writes the names of the Church, that He alone reads the hearts, that He alone is the Judge, and that He alone has the right to blot out the names of reprobates?

  St. Paul wrote against sectarianism, already manifest in his day-some saying :"I am of Paul"; others, "I am of Peter"; etc. The Apostle asks, "Is Christ divided:" (1 Corinthians 1:10-13)

  The above was printed in Bible Students Monthly, Volume 7, Number 9 (1915), Under the title, "The Catholic Church -- St. Peter's Kingdom Keys." It was reproduced in the Chicago Bible Students publication: Harvest Gleanings Volume 1.

  http://rlctr.blogspot.com/2008/09/xf01-catholic-church.html

  We have the tens of thousands of pages that have been produced from the works of Russell that provide overwhelming testimony that Russell was not a Freemason. He plainly stated: “I have never been a Mason.”

  http://ctr.reslight.net/?p=763

  He did employ some terminology from the Freemasons and many others to provide illustrations of various things taught in the Bible. There is no doubt in my mind that Russell was not a member of the Freemason organization. Indeed, no one has presented any proof whatsoever that Russell lied when he said, "I have never been a Mason." What is often presented is what has been conjured up in the spirit of human imagination. Overwhelming evidence in his writings that he was not a Mason; zero evidence that he was Mason.

  http://ctr.reslight.net/?cat=3

  Most of Russell's works may be found online:

  http://mostholyfaith.com/

  http://agsconsulting.com/htdbv5/start.htm

  http://www.heraldmag.org/olb/contents/bsllinks/Russell.htm

  http://biblestudents.net/htdb/
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  reslight2

  From 1904 to 1914, Russell taught that Armageddon was to begin in and end some time after 1914. He was not, however, preaching the kind Armageddon that the JWs preach. His view of Armageddon was that it was to be a period of chastisement for the people of the nations, not that it would bring eternal destruction to them. He believed that after Armageddon, all peoples of the nations would be blessed by God's kingdom.

  See:
  Beginning of Time of Trouble - Quotes from Russell:

  http://ctr.reslight.net/?p=1301
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  factfinder

  I did not realize there are still people who follow Brother Russell! I did once meet a women once, however, who said she was a Bible Student, not one of Jehovah's Witnesses, and she believed in Russell's teachings. Is this the same group?
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  lovelylil

  Russell was a complete Loon! He started his own crazy religion because he did not like the church he attended. He borrowed heavily from the Millerites, adventists, Masons and others and concocted a strange brew of his own.

  When my hubby and I first left the Witnesses, we associated for a short time with some Bible students. Most of them WORSHIP Russell. You cannot say anything against the man because they will verbally attack you. This happened to me and my husband. They flooded my email with hate mail because I said Russell taught a lot of false things that JW's today still believe.

  The bible students like to distance themselves from JWs but they are definately the sister org. complete with false teachings about Jesus being Michael the Archangel, the invisible presence, the year 1914, niether believe in the bodily resurection of Christ or that Christ was God in the flesh. Most of christendom rejects bible students along with JWs because their views go against mainstream christian teachings. The bible students also HATE all of christendom just like the WT but they do not shun those who leave their group.

  For any JWs who have left the org and want to know more about the early teachings of the WT, I would suggest they get copies of the study in the scripture books from any of the bible student groups. They still hold onto all of Russells old teachings, even the ones the WT got rid of.

  Once you read them, you will see what a twisted mind Russell really had. To his credit, he didn't believe in organized religion. But other than that, all this teachings were rubbish.
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  jamiebowers

  There has been much written about Russel's "miracle wheat" scam and some other corporate entity, the name of which I can't recall. The testimony in his divorce proceedings painted him, in my mind, as an odd man who never consumated his marriage and prefered the company of women much younger than his wife.