timothy, as i'm not one of the 144,000, jesus is not my mediator, so i chose to pray to jehovah through gerrit lösch.
Is the New Testament only for the 144,000 then?
A couple of scriptures that are familiar to most Jehovah's Witnesses...
“Man must live, not on bread alone, but on every utterance coming forth through Jehovah's mouth.”
Man includes all humans. Every utterance includes all the scriptures.
(2Tim 3: 16,17)
16 All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work.
All scripture is obvious, it includes both Hebrew and Greek scriptures. Are we to believe that only the 144,000 can be a ‘man of God’? Certainly not. Without all the scriptures, the man of God cannot be completely equipped for every good work. And which 'good work' is most important to JWs? Is it not the door to door preaching work? Who does most of that, the annointed? No.
At the time Jesus spoke, the entire group of Christians was indeed a "little flock."
Not quite, dear Ding (peace to you!). The "little flock" were the Jews (2-tribe kingdom of Judah and Benjamin). The "other sheep" were comprised of the 10-tribe kingdom of Israel... AND non-Israelite people of the nations: gentiles (one who is NOT a Jew, which includes, say, the tribe of Zebulun, et al.).
Although a few from the nations were called intermitttently (i.e., the Phoenecian woman, the Samaritan woman, etc.), my Lord first called the Jews ("Judea")... then, through the Apostles, et al., the rest of Israel ("Samaria")... then, through Paul, et al., those of the nations.
The 144,000... INCLUDE Jews (Judah/Benjamin)... as well as 12,000 from among the other tribes, excluding Dan. As Rachel's firstborn, Joseph receives TWO shares ("Joseph", representing his son, Ephraim, and "Mannaseh", representing his other son).
These 144,000 "from... the sons of ISRAEL" ONLY... are gathered all throughout the "gathering" of the nations (which REPLACES Israel, beyond the 144,000). Once the full number of the nations is brought in, the REST of ALL Israel is brought in. Once all of those who are part of the 144,000 are SEALED... then the four winds are loosed. THAT starts the "great tribulation".
The great crowd... come OUT of the events belonging to that period; however, unlike the teaching of the WTBTS... John's account does NOT state that they come out alive in the flesh. Rather, they have WHITE ROBES (spirit bddies!)... when HE sees them. Which suggests that they have PUT OFF THE FLESH... in one way (death) or another (changing/metamorphoso).
In Revelation 7, the 144,000 are all on EARTH. How do we know this? Because the angels were commanded not to let destruction come on earth until the 144,000 had been sealed for their protection.
This is an error: John does not even SEE the 144,000... but ONLY HEARS THEIR NUMBER. When he DOES see them... they are standing... WITh the Lamb... "on Mt. Zion." Mt Zion is the "mound" upon which "New Jerusalem" is "built".
Even so, neither the 144,000 NOR the great crowd REMAIN in heaven (they only go there for their "marriage" TO the Lamb). These rule UPON the earth. Thus, they... NEW Jerusalem... "come down OUT of heaven"... to the earth... which God gave to them. That is how Gog and Magog are able to come against and encircle them and their "camp" (the sheep, separated from the goats... who these rule over as SUBJECTS of the kingdom).
I hope this helps and, again, bid you peace!
YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,
I think the "little flock" are they who understand the sacred secret. The "other sheep" are all they who listen to the little flock and come to Jesus to bear his yoke along side him. Matthew 11:29,30. Can one become of the 144,000 without knowing the scriptures? It's possible, I think. But not possible to be opposed to Jesus and be of the little flock, or the other sheep.
How about this... there is no actual "144,000" because it's just a figurative number. 12 being the number of perfection in governance, 12 X 12=144.
I asked an active JW about the 144 being all from Jewish tribes.
JW: "The Jewish tribes is just a figurative description."
Me: "So how do 12 figurative numbers add up to one literal number?"
JW: "The '12,000' is literal but 'Judah' is figurative.
Me: "Why does the WT change it's interpretation technique of literal vs figurative from one word to the next?" ("..Judah twelve thousand..") Rev.7:5
Silence followed as the JW was confronted with the possibility that maybe the WT doesn't know how to interpret the Bible. Stunning!
Also, since the FDS is mentioned in the NT I guess what the FDS says doesn't apply to most JWs? It almost seems like they're making this stuff up!
I'll quit since my sarcasm meter is at tilt.
Welcome extractor Funny flip flopping figurative friends, it's all been worth it. So, where did you get your sarcasm meter?
Extractor makes a good point.
I have had JWs tell me that the 12,000s are figurative but the 144,000 they add up to is literal.
Sadly, the absurdity of this didn't bother them at all.
i thougth perhaps i would add my quota to the discussion ongoing
it really makes me sad knowing that people who call themselves christians are so ingorant about the word of God, and for that matter almost all JW's . How they come into acceptance of only 144000 people going to heaven bothers me alot. People need to realiize that the Bible is as litteral it can be and if it talks about symbolic things it is quite to interpretate it for us.
Revelation clearly tells the specific and literal sence in which the 144000 is chosen and that is from the 12 tribes of Isreal. It even went as far as breaking down the numbers into the specific tribes.
And then there is the great crowd called out of all nations and languages on the earth, who are basically sincere christians of today.
Stop trying to make that Bible look like those other religious books that like to keep secrets and hide stuffs from ther followers like the free masons and all. And they would tell you " you really cant understand on your own" .
That is bad.
and who do you know that from, bioflex?
good question TimothyT...another interesting thread for me to follow...sorry no useful comment cause I dunno...