Is the New Testament only for the 144,000 then?

by TimothyT 32 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • J. Hofer
    J. Hofer

    i didn't say you can't know anything, i only said that that statement you made stands without proof. this isn't an attack on you or your level of knowledge, it's at most an attack on your point of view. that's completely valid and to be expected.

    nonstampcollecting is an analogy. atheism is as much a religion as nonstampcollecting is a hobby. and yes, i try to screw with brains.

  • N.drew

    Thank you. You are a gentleman J. Hofer.

  • N.drew

    That is correct. People who say atheism is a religion are making stupid words of nonsense.

  • TimothyT

    Errr yeah... so anyway... the 144,000? Any more thoughts?

  • AGuest

    The New Covenant... for life... is for ANYONE, dear Timothy T (peace to you!), STARTING with Israel, and then including the nations:

    Jeremiah 31:31-34:

    “Look! There are days coming,” is the utterance of JaHVeH, “and I will conclude with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah a new covenant;not one like the covenant that I concluded with their forefathers in the day of my taking hold of their hand to bring them forth out of the land of Egypt, ‘which covenant of mine they themselves broke, although I myself had husbandly ownership of them,’ is the utterance of JaHVeH.”

    “For this is the covenant that I shall conclude with the house of Israel after those days,” is the utterance of JaHVeH. “I will put my law within them, and in their heart I shall write it. And I will become their God, and they themselves will become my people.”

    “And they will no more teach each one his companion and each one his brother, saying, ‘K NOW JaHVeH!’ for they will all of them know me, from the least one of them even to the greatest one of them,” is the utterance of JaHVeH. “For I shall forgive their error, and their sin I shall remember no more.”

    That Covenant was for "a holy nation"... "a people for a special possession". Since Israel, as a nation, rejected the One sent to mediate and ratify that New Covenant with them, the Most Holy One of Israel turned His attention to call in the NON-Israelite nations, through that One:

    John 6:47-48

    "Most truly I say to YOU , He that believes has everlasting life. ' I am the bread of life. Y OUR forefathers ate the manna in the wilderness and yet died. This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that anyone may eat of it and not die. I am the living bread that came down from heaven; if anyone eats of this bread he will live forever; and, for a fact, the bread that I shall give is my flesh in behalf of the life of the world.'

    " Therefore the Jews began contending with one another, saying: “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” Accordingly [Jesus] said to them: “Most truly I say to YOU , Unless YOU eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, YOU have no life in yourselves. He that feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has everlasting life, and I shall resurrect him at the last day; for my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. He that feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood remains in union with me, and I in union with him. Just as the living Father sent me forth and I live because of the Father, he also that feeds on me, even that one will live because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven. It is not as when YOUR forefathers ate and yet died. He that feeds on this bread will live forever.”

    That One, the Holy One of Israel and Holy Spirit, JAHESHUA, the Chosen One of JAH... His Son and Christ... instituted the "covenant for a kingdom"... of KINGS AND PRIESTS... starting with the Apostles... then 144,000 "from among the sons of Israel", and then "a great crowd which no MAN is able to number, out of EVERY nation, tribe, tongue, and peoples":

    Revelation 5:1-10:

    " And I saw in the right hand of the One seated upon the throne a scroll written within and on the reverse side, sealed tight with seven seals. And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice: “Who is worthy to open the scroll and loose its seals?” But neither in heaven nor upon earth nor underneath the earth was there a single one able to open the scroll or to look into it. And I gave way to a great deal of weeping because no one was found worthy to open the scroll or to look into it. But one of the elders says to me: “Stop weeping. Look! The Lion that is of the tribe of Judah, the root of David, has conquered so as to open the scroll and its seven seals.”

    "And I saw standing in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures and in the midst of the elders a lamb as though it had been slaughtered, having seven horns and seven eyes, which [eyes] mean the seven spirits of God that have been sent forth into the whole earth. And he went and at once took [it] out of the right hand of the One seated on the throne. And when he took the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, having each one a harp and golden bowls that were full of incense, and the [incense] means the prayers of the holy ones. And they sing a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, because you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought persons for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,

    and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings UPON the earth.”

    Thus, the great crowd are ALSO kings and priests WITH the 144,000:

    Revelation 7:9-15:

    "I saw, and, look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands. And they keep on crying with a loud voice, saying: Salvation [we owe] to ourGod,who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb.”

    "And all the angels were standing around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and they fell upon their faces before the throne and worshiped God, saying: “Amen! The blessing and the glory and the wisdom and the thanksgiving and the honor and the power and the strength [be] to our God forever and ever. Amen.”

    And in response one of the elders said to me: “These who are dressed in the white robes, who are they and where did they come from?” So right away I said to him: “My lord, you are the one that knows.” And he said to me: “These are the ones that come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. That is whythey are before the throne of God; and they are rendering himsacred service day and night in his temple; and the One seated on the throne will spread his tent over them."

    The great crowd are those "other sheep"... the nations... who, along WITH the "little flock of Jews/Israel"... listen to the voice of the Fine Shepherd, so that the hear him when he calls and, with the little flock become ONE flock: a people for a special possession, a holy nation... of kings and priests:

    John 10:14-16:

    "I am the fine shepherd, and I know my sheep and my sheep know me, just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I surrender my soul in behalf of the sheep. And I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those also I must bring, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd."

    Romans 11:7-32:

    "The very thing Israel is earnestly seeking he did not obtain, but the ones chosen obtained it. The rest had their sensibilities blunted; just as it is written: “God has given them a spirit of deep sleep, eyes so as not to see and ears so as not to hear, down to this very day.”Also, David says: “Let their table become for them a snare and a trap and a stumbling block and a retribution;let their eyes become darkened so as not to see, and always bow down their back.”

    "Therefore I ask, Did they stumble so that they fell completely? Never may that happen! But by their false step there is salvation to people of the nations, to incite them to jealousy. Now if their false step means riches to the world, and their decrease means riches to people of the nations, how much more will the full number of them mean it!

    "Now I speak to YOU who are people of the nations. Forasmuch as I am, in reality, an apostle to the nations, I glorify my ministry, if I may by any means incite [those who are] my own flesh to jealousy and save some from among them. For if the casting of them away means reconciliation for the world, what will the receiving of them mean but life from the dead? Further, if the [part taken as] firstfruits is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are also.

    "However, if some of the branches were broken off but you, although being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became a sharer of the olive’s root of fatness, do not be exulting over the branches. If, though, you are exulting over them, it is not you that bear the root, but the root [bears] you. You will say, then: “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” All right! For [their] lack of faith they were broken off, but you are standing by faith. Quit having lofty ideas, but be in fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. See, therefore, God’s kindness and severity. Toward those who fell there is severity, but toward you there is God’s kindness, provided you remain in his kindness; otherwise, you also will be lopped off. They also, if they do not remain in their lack of faith, will be grafted in; for God is able to graft them in again. For if you were cut out of the olive tree that is wild by nature and were grafted contrary to nature into the garden olive tree, how much rather will these who are natural be grafted into their own olive tree!

    "For I do not want YOU , brothers, to be ignorant of this sacred secret, in order for YOU not to be discreet in your own eyes: that a dulling of sensibilities has happened in part to Israel until the full number of people of the nations has come in, and in this manner all Israel will be saved. Just as it is written: “The deliverer will come out of Zion and turn away ungodly practices from Jacob. And this is the covenant on my part with them, when I take their sins away.” True, with reference to the good news they are enemies for YOUR sakes, but with reference to [God’s] choosing they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. For the gifts and the calling of God are not things he will regret. For just as YOU were once disobedient to God but have now been shown mercy because of their disobedience, so also these now have been disobedient with mercy resulting to YOU , that they themselves also may now be shown mercy. For God has shut them all up together in disobedience, that he might show all of them mercy."

    The WTBTS has absolutely NO clue as to the composition and distinction of the 144,000, either alone or in relation to the great crowd. They don't... because they are imposters: false christs ("anointed") and false prophets... a wild beast who speaks LIKE a "lamb"... through its two horns, the WT and AW. Get OUT of her... the harlot that those who profess to be "anointed" but commit spiritual fornication WITHIN HER are, dear one... if you haven't already. Seperate yourself and QUIT touching that unclean "thing."

    May you be given ears to hear, if you so wish them... when the Spirit and the Bride say to YOU:

    "Come! Take 'life's water'... the holy spirit of God, the MOST Holy One of Israel, JAH of Armies... which "oil of exultation" is poured out from the innermost parts of His Son and Christ, the Holy One of Israel and Holy Spirit, my Lord, JAHESHUA, the Chosen One of JAH (MischaJah)... FREE!"

    Servant to the Household of God, Israel, and all those who go with, and a slave of Christ,


  • N.drew

    It is God's Will that ALL men be saved and come to an accurate knowledge. No more will they say "know Jehovah" for they will all know, from the least to the greatest. The least might be them of the "great crowd" who will end up dead, (not because they don't want to be-don't you love those double negatives huh?), the greatest are the kings and priests with Jesus, we, I mean I, don't know where they come from. It's just theory. No jerk was harmed in the posting of this post. Not you JRK. Please.

  • TimothyT

    J Hofer... do you like the guy on your avatar pic? He is Gerrit Loesch yeh? Do you think he is cool? HEHE!

    Thanks for your responses too people! :D

  • N.drew

    AGuest Better you than me! It might have taken a thousand years for me to say that (what you said). You are quick! God bless you. I'll read it later or now, now me thinks. It's hard to find my place. Again.

  • AGuest

    rachafracha posting/editing feature...

  • Ding

    The view that the "little flock" of Luke 12:32 is the same as the 144,000 of Revelation 7 is nothing but WT spin. At the time Jesus spoke, the entire group of Christians was indeed a "little flock." In Revelation 7, the 144,000 are all on EARTH. How do we know this? Because the angels were commanded not to let destruction come on earth until the 144,000 had been sealed for their protection. In Revelation 7:9, the great crowd is before the throne and the Lamb. Where is God's throne? Where is the Lamb? In heaven! He hadn't come to earth yet. See Revelation 22, where he says he is coming (future event).

    Doesn't it seem ridiculous on its face that every Christian before Russell's day is supposedly part of the 144,000, that there were fewer than 144,000 true Christians from the apostles' day until the late 19th century? That's only about 77 new Christians per year! How many converts did Paul alone have??? Then suddenly when the WTS grows over 144,000, Rutherford receives "new light" that there are two classes of Christians and that the vast majority of JWs are in the earthly class, NOT a part of the same group as all the other Christians in history?

    With that in mind, if you want some Bible verses:

    John 1:12: "12 Yet to ALL who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God--"

    John 3:3-7 (NLT): "3 Jesus replied, "I assure you, unless you are born again, you can never SEE the Kingdom of God." 4 "What do you mean?" exclaimed Nicodemus. "How can an old man go back into his mother's womb and be born again?" 5 Jesus replied, "The truth is, NO ONE can ENTER the Kingdom of God without being born of water and the Spirit. 6 Humans can reproduce only human life, but the Holy Spirit gives new life from heaven. 7 So don't be surprised at my statement that you must be born again."

    I think it safe to say that no JW today would say that he already has eternal life, not even the "anointed." But what does Jesus say?

    John 6:47-53 (NLT): "I assure you, ANYONE who believes in me already HAS eternal life. 48 Yes, I am the bread of life! 49 Your ancestors ate manna in the wilderness, but they all died. 50 However, the bread from heaven gives eternal life to EVERYONE who eats it. 51 I AM the living bread that came down out of heaven. ANYONE who eats this bread will live forever; this bread is my flesh, offered so the world may live." 52 Then the people began arguing with each other about what he meant. "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?" they asked. 53 So Jesus said again, "I assure you, UNLESS you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you CANNOT HAVE ETERNAL LIFE within you. 54 But THOSE WHO EAT my flesh and drink my blood have eternal life, and I will raise them at the last day. 55 For my flesh is the true food, and my blood is the true drink. 56 ALL WHO EAT my flesh and drink my blood remain in me, and I in them. 57 I live by the power of the living Father who sent me; in the same way, THOSE WHO PARTAKE OF ME will live because of me. 58 I am the true bread from heaven. ANYONE who eats this bread will live forever and not die as your ancestors did, even though they ate the manna." 59 He said these things while he was teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum. 60 Even his disciples said, "This is very hard to understand. How can anyone accept it?" 61 Jesus knew within himself that his disciples were complaining, so he said to them, "Does this offend you? 62 Then what will you think if you see me, the Son of Man, return to heaven again? 63 IT IS THE SPIRIT WHO GIVES ETERNAL LIFE. HUMAN EFFORT ACCOMPLISHES NOTHING. And the very words I have spoken to you are spirit and life."

    John 10:16: "I have other sheep, too, that are not in this sheepfold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice; and THERE WILL BE ONE FLOCK with one shepherd." (Note not TWO flocks, a little one and a big one. This is speaking of the Gentiles, NOT two different types of Christians: Ephesians 3:4-6: "4 As you read what I have written, you will understand what I know about this plan regarding Christ. 5 God did not reveal it to previous generations, but now he has revealed it by the Holy Spirit to his holy apostles and prophets. 6 And this is the secret plan: The GENTILES have an equal share with the Jews in all the riches inherited by God's children. BOTH groups have believed the Good News, and both are part of the SAME BODY and enjoy TOGETHER the promise of blessings through Christ Jesus.")

    Acts 2:38-39: " the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is for you and your children and for ALL who are far off-- for ALL whom the Lord our God will call."

    Romans 3:20-22: "For NO ONE can ever be made right in God's sight BY DOING what his law commands. For the more we know God's law, the clearer it becomes that we aren't obeying it. 21 But now God has shown us A DIFFERENT WAY OF BEING RIGHT IN HIS SIGHT-- not by obeying the law but by the way promised in the Scriptures long ago. 22 We are made right in God's sight when we trust in Jesus Christ to take away our sins. And we ALL can be saved in this SAME WAY, no matter who we are or what we have done."

    Romans 8:9 (NLT): "9 But you are not controlled by your sinful nature. You are controlled by the Spirit if you have the SPIRIT OF GOD LIVING IN YOUAnd remember that THOSE WHO DO NOT HAVE THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST LIVING IN THEM ARE NOT CHRISTIANS AT ALL.)"

    OT patriarchs will also be in the kingdom of heaven. and in Revelation 21 the distinction between heaven and earth is abolished:

    Matthew 8:11: "And I tell you this, that many Gentiles will come from all over the world and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob at the feast IN THE KINGDOM of HEAVEN."

    Hebrews 11:12-16 (NLT): "12 And so a whole nation came from this one man, Abraham, who was too old to have any children-- a nation with so many people that, like the stars of the sky and the sand on the seashore, there is no way to count them. 13 All these faithful ones died without receiving what God had promised them, but they saw it all from a distance and welcomed the promises of God. They agreed that they were NO MORE THAN FOREIGNERS and nomads HERE ON EARTH. 14 And obviously people who talk like that are looking forward to a country they can call their own. 15 If they had meant the country they came from, they would have found a way to go back. 16 But they were looking for a better place, a HEAVENLY homeland. That is why God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a HEAVENLY city for them."

    Revelation 21:2-3: "2 And I saw the holy CITY, the new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven like a beautiful bride prepared for her husband. 3 I heard a loud shout from the throne, saying, "Look, the home of God is now among his people! HE WILL LIVE WITH THEM, and they will be his people. GOD HIMSELF will be with them."

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