"All religious belief distills down to faith in utterly unprovable stories."

by Franklin Massey 50 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  bohm

  I would say "assertions" rather than stories to catch claims of people who hear and see things which are not there, but i think you summed it up very well.

  One thing i think is worth considering though is that the assertions being made (for instance, Adam and Eva lived, "I talk to god") are not a-priori unprovable; quite to the contrary, they are things where we have a very easy time figuring out ways to check if they are true or not!

  The religious part creep in by a continous rewriting of the claims and methology to check if they are true untill they become de-facto unprovable (a common tactic could be to change the question from: "is is true that we share a common ancestor with chimpanzees" to "is is possible that this piece of evidence does not fully proove we share a common ancestor wth the chimpanzee", a "yes" being interpreted as sufficient reason to reject evoluton)... in other words, special pleading.
• 

  THE GLADIATOR

  Some interesting viewpoints have been expressed in this thread. A growing number of people such as Tammy/Tec have gone freelance. I find it an understandable position to adopt but as soon as the name Christ Jesus is used, an association with the establish Christian Church is too strong to be dismissed. Perhaps it would be better to come up with another name that is not tarnished.

  Like many others I do not believe in a personal god who can be named and spoken to with words. I am bemused by the idea that an almighty being needs a name such as Allah, Zeus, Jehovah, Christ, Yahweh or any hybrid version of bible based names. ‘God Almighty’ will do just fine to identify the concept of such a being.

  Although many cannot bring themselves to invest in God at present or any religion, that does not mean they are all materialists who are presumptuous enough to declare that there is no unifying invisible intelligence at work throughout the universe. If there is, it would be an impartial, unemotional awareness that bears no resemblance to earthbound creatures - certainly not man.

  Many of us have spent much of our lives seeking, praying and searching. What we have discovered is a beautiful planet inhabited by both wonderful and terrible people but no sign of God. Some of us keep an open mind but alas I am not optimistic and no longer search for God. That does not mean I have abandoned my spiritual journey. It means I am travelling a different path.
• 

  tec

  LV101 - Love to you as well!

  Qcmbr- I guess when I say not religious, I mean that I have faith in Christ and God, but have left behind (or tried to leave behind) the bias and trappings of organized religion, itself. I am not completely free of them though. Sometimes I am afraid when I speak out against some doctrine, simply because they are so accepted, and part of them still clings to me. Sort of the same when you first leave the JW's... (or the Mormons in your case)... a few things cling to when you leave, even though you KNOW they're untrue. Takes time to get rid of all those chains.

  If our memory of religion and what it teaches was somehow wiped from the minds of all, then I 100% believe that some would still seek, and hear the call. Some would still have the faith needed to hear and to believe and to seek. That is the distinction that I see between religion and faith. You can have one without the other. I think and hope I would have sought, but I also believe that I, personally, woud have needed to hear someone say it is possible to answer the call and HEAR, first.

  Nor do I disassociate myself from 'church'. The church is the Body of Christ, and it can be found anywhere, made up of people who belong to Christ and they too can be found anywhere. Religion or no religion. I don't speak out against them. Just against the man-made doctrines, the rules, the lies that some people have propulgated, the hypocrisy, and the judgment passed onto everyone 'not part of their group'. I also know that not all sects of Christianity are like that, for those of you who belong to such sects.

  Peace,

  Tammy - who is off to work and can only continue later.
• 

  OnTheWayOut

  Nickolas said it nicely on his own thread:

  Rough translation, we are speaking different languages to one another and there is no way we are capable of understanding what each other is trying to say. To each and all, I respect that you have chosen the path on which you find yourselves. All I ask in return is that you respect mine. To the statement of this thread, "All religious belief distills down to faith in utterly unprovable stories," I think the "different languages" aspect arises from the single word, "religious." Many believers in a single almighty God (allowing for the Trinity of that God of course) will have to clarify their answers by somehow objecting to "religious" to put a strawman in the argument and make it appear that they are not putting faith in "utterly unproveable stories." I will say a mouthful in this sentence ahead, try to get it before knocking it: Really, regardless of the firm convictions of believers in their beliefs, as far as someone else putting any faith/belief/conviction in their personal revelations/revealings/convictions from God/Jesus, IF THERE IS NO WAY TO CONFIRM OR DISPROVE A CLAIM, THERE IS NO REASON TO ATTACH ANY SIGNIFICANCE TO IT. I say that because one person's claim was that Moroni revealed everything through golden plates, but nobody can verify that because the plates were returned and everyone who saw them was not able to read them untranslated. Another believer will say that Mohammad was the very last prophet and any claims about Moroni are false. Another believer will totally contradict both above claims because their personal revelation let them know something completely different. Several someones must be lying or mistaken in these cases.

  From my best effort to understand Christian believers on JWN, I have the following understanding:

  God and/or Jesus are nothing but good.

  If there is anything in the Bible that makes Him/them seem bad (approving rape, genocide, murder, slavery, etc.) then we are either misunderstanding it or it is the words of men that misrepresents God/Jesus.

  If there is anything in the Bible that makes Him/them seem good, then it may very well be from Him/them.

  God/Jesus can be known through some kind of personal revealing/revelation (go ahead and object and call it something else) to each human. If you don't get that revealing/revelation, then you are not listening or something is wrong with YOU, because He/they are available to everyone. (I suppose this is similar to the same-old-story from faith healers- God heals those that blindly believe and anyone who is not healed is a nonbeliever.) Accept blindly, then later it will be proven/revealed to you personally, but others will still not have any evidence of what you know.

  I am certain that someone will pick apart the language I use, the words to convey what I said, and miss the entire message. We are speaking "different languages."
• 

  PSacramento

  All religious belief distills down to faith in utterly unprovable stories.

  To a certain extent, yes.
• 

  Franklin Massey

  First off, thanks for all of the responses. I'm seeing people on this thread that I haven't seen before. So, hey there.

  Shador, I have read the God Delusion. Dawkins comes on strong but many of his points are sound. Your admission of ideas being taken with a grain of salt shows humility on your part. Unfortunately, that trait is often lacking when believers and non-believers express their viewpoints. We seem to have this tendency to want to be right about the unknowable.

  Giordano, Is less religion in the world really good news? Do you think that religion is more a force for bad or a force for good? Do some people NEED religion?

  Band on the Run, I agree that these stories were meant to serve some purpose. Teaching morals, lessons, etc. When these stories teach something that is considered to be "true," as in, "treat people the way you want to be treated," many believers point to that as being so universally true that it must be from a Divine source. One kernel of spiritual "truth" can be a little building block for faith. But I'm a skeptic. I need more. I lack faith. So where do I go to find it?

  Flipper, Religulous: Good film. I too recommend it.

  I need to read some Jung.

  tec, Allow me to argue that most people learn of Christ through some sort of religion. Would that be a fair statement? If so, then wouldn't that belief have some semblance of religion, even if the believer moved on from organized religion later. And if not, would you say that your ideas are entirely your own and no religion aided in your understanding of Christ? I ask because I hear others talk of Christ in this way but since I haven't had that experience, I can't relate. Also, could you expound on you reply to Flipper about Jesus giving you answers? How does that work?

  Mad Sweeney, "...intelligent custodians of our planet and civilization." Lovely. That is something I can believe in.

  Qcmbr, I'm glad you jumped in on this since the topic is based on something you said on a separate thread ;)

  Gladiator brings up an interesting point regarding "freelance" believers. I can respect that. I also find that the "freelance" types can better articulate their unique viewpoint compared with the average religious follower. It's a fault of mine but when I hear a response that sounds like manufactured groupspeak regarding a religious - or nonreligious - position, my gag reflex goes into overdrive. It's one of my complaints about JWs.

  OTWO, You're right, "religious" is a loaded term. But I think we've done fairly well in this thread not getting too hung up on it. You also said, "IF THERE IS NO WAY TO CONFIRM OR DISPROVE A CLAIM, THERE IS NO REASON TO ATTACH ANY SIGNIFICANCE TO IT." I would agree but only under the condition that every avenue to confirm/disprove has been taken.

  How could one of these so-called "unprovable stories" be proven correct? What would it take to convince a non-believer?

  For those who haven't weighed in, what do you think about this statement "All religious belief distills down to faith in utterly unprovable stories?"
• 

  PSacramento

  How could one of these so-called "unprovable stories" be proven correct? What would it take to convince a non-believer?

  Define proof?

  I don't think that people are non-believers simply because there is no proof of certain stories.

  There are believers that view the vast majority of the bible as no more than mere stories to make theological points.
• 

  PSacramento

  Example:

  If science proved that there was indeed a global flood, what they make a non-beleiver a believer?

  Probably not.
• 

  tec

  tec, Allow me to argue that most people learn of Christ through some sort of religion. Would that be a fair statement?

  Yes. Or the bible, which in itself is not religion... the gospels and letters were witness testimonies and learning, but they were so close to Christ, I'm not sure it could be defined as religion as we have it today. But for the most part, yes, a fair statement.

  If so, then wouldn't that belief have some semblance of religion, even if the believer moved on from organized religion later.

  Again, yes... in the sense of having a 'tie' with religion. But one can learn about someone from something (such as religion), but then leave the religion to simply live in faith for that One.

  You CAN have religion without faith (and often do). You can have faith without religion. You can also have religious people who have faith. You can also have faithful people who also have a need for religion. I might not understand the latter two, but that doesn't mean that they do not eXist. I, for one, have faith without religion. I never really had religion to beging with. But I cannot help where I learned about Christ. We are supposed to share our knowing 'about' and 'of' Him, to any who wish to hear. So that doesn't have to come from religion. Just from faith.

  There is a difference. It might not seem like it but there is.

  The closest I came to religion was the JW's. I left them, and I saw no reason to join any other religion, when what I was really searchign for was the truth. What I was really searching for was Christ. He doesn't need religion for us to know Him. Religion is something we see (buildings, rituals, orgainzation, bibles, churches, pictures, etc), something on the outside. Faith is something we do not see because it is spirit; it is something on the inside.

  And if not, would you say that your ideas are entirely your own and no religion aided in your understanding of Christ? I ask because I hear others talk of Christ in this way but since I haven't had that experience, I can't relate.

  My understanding of Christ doesn't come from religion at all. Otherwise, I don't think I could believe so differently, lol. My learning about Christ and his e Xistence, that is the only thing that could be said as having come from religion. I would not say that my ideas are entirely my own. I put myself in God's hands and do my best to listen to His Son. I am still kinda new at that, but the more I listen, the more I put faith in what I 'hear' (hear as in understand, in my case, anyway)

  Also, could you expound on you reply to Flipper about Jesus giving you answers? How does that work?

  I ask for understanding and I receive it. I recieved something today and made a post about it. For me, it is an understanding that feels right. Right down to my bones. Something that just becomes part of me. Some hear in words too, I think. But I have a constant inner monologue that just never hushes up, lol, so perhaps its harder for me to hear that way, at least for now.

  Peace to you,

  Tammy
• 

  sizemik

  If science proved that there was indeed a global flood, what they make a non-beleiver a believer? . . . PSac

  Well . . . it probably would in my case. Any convergence between scientific knowledge and claims such as the "truth" of the global flood would get my attention. But sadly . . . there just isn't any. Not yet anyway.