What good is punishment after you die?

by Lore 22 Replies latest jw friends

  • Lore

    When your child disobeys, you punish him. WHY?

    Simple answer: So he will listen next time and won't disobey again.

    If the child has a learning disorder and is incapable of learning from the punishment, odds are you will stop punishing him and will deal with his condition in other ways.

    We punish children in order to change their behavior. If the punishment does not promote a change in behavior the punishment is useless and possibly evil.

    When a criminal disobeys, we punish him. Why?

    Simple answer: To discourage others from doing the same thing, and possibly to convince him to not do it again.

    If the man has a mental disorder and was not in control of his actions, it still does the rest of society good to lock him up or rehabilitate him so that he cannot bother us anymore with his crimes.

    It doesn't do HIM any good since he won't learn from it, but it does the rest of society a benefit by removing a harmful or dangerous force from the general population.

    When a person sins, god sends him to hell AFTER HE DIES. Why?

    Simple answer: I have no idea.

    It cannot make him change his behavior since he has already died. It's not like he can commit the same crime again if he tried since he already did it all the times he possibly could. It doesn't protect anyone from him since you let him get away with it until he died, so if he was gonna go on a murdering rampage for 40 years, punishing him AFTER the fact does no good. You should have stopped him BEFORE or DURING the rampage.

    If the goal is to prevent others from sinning by his example, then it fails in that regard as well since it only happens in some other invisible dimension after he's already died. So none of us can learn from his example.

    What good does it do? And by 'good' I mean: Has a generally positive benefit for some intelligent being.

  • WTWizard

    It does one piece of good--it satisfies Jehovah's sick desire to see humans suffer.

  • AGuest
    When a person sins, god sends him to hell AFTER HE DIES. Why?

    Can you show me, dear Lore (peace to you!) where God does this simply because one sinned? I am not sure whose doctrine you're referring to (and I do realize that many believe and teach this but it's not actually accurate). Since ALL sin... yet, not all are apparently "sent to hell"... surely there must be something "wrong" with this understanding/teaching/belief?

    Again, peace to you!

    YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,


  • Shador

    Hell would be about par for the course for YHWH.

    “The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it, a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.” - Richard Dawkins

  • charlie brown jr.
    charlie brown jr.


    So you can show 78 years of Human Sinning is Really worth............

    An Eternity Being Tormented In Hell By God's Swore Enemy Satan......

    Who This God Is A God Of Love And Understanding...............

    Is Showing You ......... Obey Or ELSE!!!!!!!!!

  • Lore
    Can you show me, dear Lore (peace to you!) where God does this simply because one sinned?

    Ummmmmmm, no? I'm arguing against it, not for it. To attempt to prove it true would be a bit counterproductive.

  • botchtowersociety
    When a person sins, god sends him to hell AFTER HE DIES. Why?

    I don't see hell as a judicial decision or a punishment. I see hell as a choice. In other words, no one is sent to hell. Those who are in hell have chosen it for themselves because they prefer it to the alternative.

  • PSacramento

    Let me see, in the bible it says a few things about what happens when we die/after we die:

    The spirit returns to God.

    Bodies turn to dust.

    The ressurection at the end of days for Judgment By Christ and God.

    There is mention of Ghenna as the name given to the place (later called hell) that those who reject God and blasphemy against the HS may go since they do no repent and ask for forgiveness.

    There is mention that death is the price for our sins.

    But where is the mention of a person going to Hell or any other place because he/she sins?

    But to answer your opening question as to what good is punishment after we die:

    IF after we die there is nothing then there is no punishment.

    If however there is something and we choose to reject it's offer of love, grace, forgiveness and so forth then the "good" of punishment is that people who prefer hate and anger and violence and pain to the offer of Love and kindness and forgiveness, well be where they "want to be".

  • I quit!
    I quit!
    I see hell as a choice. In other words, no one is sent to hell.

    If someone doesn't believe in hell how can you say they made a choice to go somewhere they don't believe in? Why would you think it makes any sense to say someone made a choice to go to some horrible place forever that no living person has ever been to or can prove exists?

  • botchtowersociety
    If someone doesn't believe in hell how can you say they made a choice to go somewhere they don't believe in?

    For the sake of discussion, if an immortal conscious soul does in fact exist, it exists whether we believe in it in this life or not. In that case, if it does indeed exist and we behold the things that lie beyond this life at the time of our death, we make our choice then.

    Why would you think it makes any sense to say someone made a choice to go to some horrible place forever that no living person has ever been to or can prove exists?

    Hell isn't the greater of two evils for those that choose it. It is the preferred choice for them. It is a place/state of those that choose separation from God. It is the choice of a separation from the source of what is true and good and the embrace of that which is not true or good. It is a free choice. We choose to spend eternity with what we love best. For some it is relationship with God, for others it is lesser things. However, humans were made to be satisfied only by that which is greatest and best. To spend eternity with anything less is like torment.

    I'll copy and paste what Tom Cabeen wrote on this board a few years ago.

    Out of love for us, he made us in such a way that our deepest longings, our most profound needs, are satisfied in Him. He made us to find our fulfillment in the best he had, Himself. He made us to be his lovers; thus we will never be satisfied until we are in perfect relationship with him. When that happens, we will also be in the correct relationship with all other creatures who are in relationship with him, a huge loving family of giving and shared experiences. That is why he made us, so that he could love us and share his life with us.

    Love, by its very nature, must be spontaneous. It cannot be forced or coerced and still be love. In order to meet that condition, God had to give us free will, along with the qualities of character we would need to exercise that free will, including intelligence, curiosity, and the capacity for faith and love. As a consequence, we must make a free choice to obey God; we must come to him in pure loving response to what he has done for us. God would never try to force us into obeying him, even though He knows we will never be completely happy until we conform our thoughts and actions to His.

    But free will also has a downside. Since we have the God-given capacity for choice, He must also give us the right to reject Him. If that were not true, we would not truly have free will. If we choose to go down that path away from our Creator, God will use every means at his disposal, short of violating our free will, to call us to repentance. He offers free forgiveness and He demonstrates his love for us over and over again, in hope that we might come to realize that only in full, complete relationship with him will we ever realize our potential as his children, made in his own image. But ultimately, we have the right to reject him, even to hate him, to substitute love we ought to have for Him and give it to other, lesser things.

    In the words of C.S. Lewis on this subject, it boils down to this: "In the end, we either say to God: 'Thy will be done' or God will say to us 'Thy will be done.'" God knows (because he made us) that once we get to that point, despite all his efforts to demonstrate his love for us, that our hatred will grow until we hate Him with all our heart (just as Satan does). Those who ultimately will end up hating God will seek to be away from his presence, even if they would be welcome there.

    God will abandon such creatures to their own devices, and thus, they will be in what Jesus called "outer darkness". Just "where" that will be is not the point at all. Even if God were to allow such people full access to his presence, they would hate to be there. Like a Rock & Roll fan at an opera, or an opera fan at a Heavy Metal concert, the same "place", God’s presence, would be heaven for one and hell for the other. Imagery like fire is used in Scripture to represent the pain of separation from God (which is the Catholic definition of hell, by the way).

    One more point about eternity. Eternity does not mean an endless succession of days; millions, billions or trillions of them. Eternity means being outside of time, timeless (that is the literal meaning of the word). All of our linear, sequential time is included in timelessness. One way to envision that is to think about the relationship of our linear time to the "time" in storybooks on a shelf. We can open a book and enter a particular "time", the succession of events found in that story. Then we can close the book and be completely outside of that "time", then later reopen it and be right back in it. That is how some orthodox thinkers have compared the linear time we live in to the eternity in which God dwells.

    Those who reject God will end up living in timelessness also, but without the one thing they need to be happy: God. But it will be their own choice about the matter. They will not just be sent somewhere because they inadvertently broke some little rule or other. It will be because they have made a fully informed choice, of their own free will, knowing full well the consequences of their choice, to live without God, and, when offered the chance to change their mind and repent, will refuse. Those who do that will be, completely as a result of their own choice, in hell.

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