Another question, if I may...

by AGuest 97 Replies latest jw friends

shechaiyah

Jeff, you are funny.
Maybe that is the true meaning of the scripture: "Each one will sit under his own vine and fig tree". We are each and every one our own so-called temple. If we find like-mined individuals to associate with, then, great! "Where there are two or three gathered together in my name, there I AM."
Maybe that's why some of us enjoy this board. We are all different, but alike, too, in that we are mostly open-minded free-thinkers who have broken free from repressive religious dogma. The connection is there, but it doesn't strangle and hinder our individual search.
Journey-on, I tend to agree with you, more than maybe you realize.
I have no problem with people who think what they think; just so long as they do not demand that I think likewise.
The planetary issue appears to me to be, BEHAVIOR. How people treat each other, is the problem.
I love the Diversity of the Creation; and mental Diversity is just as precious as Physical and Environmental Diversity.
I wrote a book about living in a community in which Diversity was okay, because I believe it's okay.
I grew up in San Francisco; and where else are you going to learn about Diversity, bettern that?
She--
bohm

religions are wrong. scams scam people. religion and scams are a bit alike in promising something false. religion has more respect and leagal standing than scams.
im not sure what the point of the thread is really..
Nickolas

Two (or three, or four, or five ...) wrongs don't make a right, Shelby. Comparing rapacious industries is irrelevant. Religion? Consider the obscene riches of the Roman Catholic church juxtaposed against the poverty of most Cathoic countries. Consider the centuries of oppression of the ignorant by the elite priesthood. Consider the crusades, the inquisitions, the burning of New World libraries, the pedophilia, the modern-day deaths from AIDS in Africa because of religious dogma about contraception and how it offends God. Consider the billions raked in by the all time favourite religion to hate in this forum. Consider the people whose lives have been ruined because they waited for an Armageddon that would never come, because they refused vaccinations or organ transplants or blood transfusions. Consider all this and know that the time has come for religion to be cast into the scrap heap on which intelligent humans have thrown black magic and superstition.
AGuest

AGuest, I feel that you are jumping back and forth between specific examples and then broad generalization.
That's fair, dear Para (again, peace to you!). I may have but I don't think that negates what I'm asking... or the validity of the question.
As I understood the original question, if I don't believe in God, why would it matter to me what a religion believes?
Not quite. Why would it matter to you that it EXISTS? I get that you might not like what some of it DOES... but not all of it. So, why call for it ALL to go?
I realize you can't paint all religions with the same brush, so my point is, I take exception to religions that try to force others through legal means to adhere to their own morality.
Yes. And that's fair. But wouldn't it be "better" to place blame accurately? For example, if "christianity" is wreaking havoc, why blame, say, Taoism? Or Buddhism? Or... religions that don't ascribe to God/a god? If there REALLY isn't a God, aren't they truly nothing more than business ventures?
I define morality in this context as personal actions that don't physically impact others.
Hmmmmmm... but in that case, wouldn't we have to say that the WT wreaks less physical impact than, say, the tobacco and alcohol industries?
If your relgious beliefs don't condemn and seek to force reform on others, then that is great. But wouldn't that put them outside of this particular discussion?
I'm not sure. MY thinking is that if there is no God... which most who oppose religion seem to have the greatest problem with... if there truly is no God... what do you CARE what others believe... or do with such beliefs... outside of directly harming others? Now, you might be one of those who DON'T care. In which case, perhaps it isn't an appropriate question for you.
Or are you asserting that so long as there are a handful of relgions that don't have a political agenda that nonbelievers should tollerate religious amendments to our legal code?
Ummmm... what? Let me be clear: I don't "do" religion. However, I am just trying to understand, if one does not believe there is a God... why religion isn't considered just another "service" industry. Because it does some harm? So do the others? Because it does GREAT harm? So does some of the others? Because the harm is to children? Same with the others. Because they pretty much lie to their "customers"? So do the others. AND even when they are warned, customers still "buy". Because they "charge" for their services? So do the others.
I've stated why *I* have a problem with it. I'm just curious why, if there is no God/god those who think there isn't have a problem with religion. That's really all I'm trying to understand. What does religion... en totale and generally... DO... that makes it, en totale, worse than some of these other industries?
Thank you for your comments, dear Para, and again peace to you!
A slave of Christ,
SA
AGuest

How dare you accuse me of not fully reading what you wrote, because I did.
I dare... because I did, Jer. Doesn't mean I was right in doing so. You say you read it. Okay, I apologize for wrongly saying you didn't... and change that to perhaps you didn't fully comprehend it. I would rather have given you the benefit of the doubt that you didn't read it and so didn't understand, though... than the alternative (i.e., you simply chose to be contentious because it was a question posed by me... rather than coming at it with a neutral outlook and intent, based on what I was asking. Which is where I initially went, given our history).
I was going to say that no matter what you believe, I love you as a friend and respect your right to believe it and state it.
Why didn't you, then, just say that? Regardless of what you think I said or meant with regard to YOU? Why does YOUR "truth" rely on ME and what I say or don't say?
But you really need to stop just trying to pick a fight with me.
I think we BOTH need to get to that place, Jer. My Lord knows... I've tried.
Have your last word, I know you need it.
Well, now, c'mon, that's not fair, in light of thread topic. For one thing, the thread isn't over - still lots to say, perhaps. Second, if I didn't respond, you (or another) would accuse me of ignoring you or your comments. No, wait... don't deny it - some here immediately go there when I don't respond or don't do so right away. But I would NEVER just simply ignore you, Jer... or ANYONE on this board... unless the comment required no comment... or called for ignoring. Otherwise, though, it would be rude and unkind of me, especially since I started the thread and asked for comments. I've tried to respond to EVERYONE who's commented - why would I leave you out? Third... it's my thread. I think that kind of gives me a kind of unspoken "right" to have the last word. Note, it would most likely be "thank you and peace to you all!", though. LOLOLOLOL!
As for the book you recommended: I don't dispute that religion poisons everything. But so does, for example, the tobacco industry. I mean, really, what benefit is there... to the direct consumer or those in his/her path... in using tobacco... other than the "illusion" of being "cool"... or having ones "nerves" calmed, etc.? (And note: I am NOT knocking smokers. This is NOT about the consumer... but the sellers.)
Tell me, Jer, since, according to YOU, there is no God... why is religion any worse than similar industries that prey on the hoypaloy... using whatever tactics they can to get their product(s) "sold"? True, it may be that certain... ummmm... "regulations" would be useful (like the "no dumping toxins into the water" regs for the tobacco industry)... but since it is a industry that folks CHOOSE to join... how can you regulate it so?
I look forward to your comments.
A slave of Christ,
SA
AGuest

Religion is bad when it is used the wrong way. If belief in a particular god is used to foment intolerance, racism, or to discourage the pursuit of knowledge, then it becomes wrong. If it helps people treat others with compassion, if it helps them to be more peaceful, to be honorable, then it's great.
I agree, dear sd-7 (peace to you!)... although I don't know if the "great" balances out the "wrong," of you know what I mean.
Either way, a lot of the resources used up on religion and going towards religion could be better used to benefit humanity in more meaningful ways than peace of mind due to a connection with the spiritual. So, that's the downside.
But we couldn't we say the same as to some of the executive/management salaries and shareholder dividends for the others?
Just askin'.
Thank you for your comment and, again, peace to you!
A slave of Christ,
SA
shechaiyah

See the difference? He calls himself a "slave to Christ."
I'm NOT a "slave to Christ."
I'm an admirer of YHVH, the Creator who knows DNA-code, light diffraction, gravity and particle physics.
There's some differences here. Maybe we can explore those, eh?
She--
AGuest

religions are wrong.
All of them? Why, dear Bohm (peace to you!)? Not that I disagree with you - just asking...
scams scam people. religion and scams are a bit alike in promising something false.
How so? Sure, some promise eternal life, but not all. Some focus people's attention on the future, but not all. Even so, don't the others I mentioned promise something false, as well?
religion has more respect and leagal standing than scams.
Yes, but not necessarily more than, say, the tobacco, alcohol, pharmaceutical, beauty, and other industries...
im not sure what the point of the thread is really...
Hmmmm... yeah, well, sorry 'bout that, truly. That fact that several others did, though... is quite "curious" to me...
Thank you for responding and, again, peace to you!
A slave of Christ,
SA
MrFreeze

Nobody has ever killed in the name of a fast food company.
AGuest

Two (or three, or four, or five ...) wrongs don't make a right, Shelby.
No, of course not, dear Nick (peace to you, dear one!). That wasn't my point. My point is... if there is NO God... why isn't religion just another "service" that some provide for those who WANT it? You may not LIKE what they provide... any more than I like, say, designer drugs, etc. But if people WANT them... and they're LEGAL... why place more blame on "them" for selling their "product"... which, admittedly, can be quite harmful... than the others?
Comparing rapacious industries is irrelevant. Religion? Consider the obscene riches of the Roman Catholic church juxtaposed against the poverty of most Cathoic countries.
I could make the same argument for the oil industry today. Including the terror and fear these wreak in Africa. Incluidng pitting tribes against one another, to the annihilation of one or both... so that land they occupy can be cleared for drilling. Or the little children who play near... and sometime get consumed by open, burning wells. While, you know, realizing 65% increases in profits during ONE quarter. Most of still buy that oil, though...
Consider the centuries of oppression of the ignorant by the elite priesthood. Consider the crusades, the inquisitions, the burning of New World libraries, the pedophilia, the modern-day deaths from AIDS in Africa because of religious dogma about contraception and how it offends God.
Yes, yes, yes. But that is the RCC, is it not... and not, say, Shintoism?
Consider the billions raked in by the all time favourite religion to hate in this forum. Consider the people whose lives have been ruined because they waited for an Armageddon that would never come, because they refused vaccinations or organ transplants or blood transfusions.
Yes. And consider the billions raked in by the tobacco industry... for far, far longer... and the people whose lives have not only been ruined... but taken, literally. Yet, we consider them a legit industry. If there is no God, and religion is only selling illusions to make, I dunno, profit... or to have power... why are they "bad"... and these others not so much?
Consider all this and know that the time has come for religion to be cast into the scrap heap on which intelligent humans have thrown black magic and superstition.
ALLreligion, dear one? What if a religion DOESN'T do such things, but do "good" works, as some have suggested? If there is no God/god... would it be "okay" for such institutions to exist? I'm thinking that it would... so long as "GOD" is not involved. Yes? And so, I'm asking... if there IS no God/god... what is the big deal?
What is it about that word "God"... or god? Because I'm thinking it was more to do with THAT... getting rid of GOD... or the THOUGHT of God... or a belief in God... than it is about getting rid of "religion." I'm thinking that if religion did all of the "good" that it does... but does not mention "God"... it would be considered "good." However, if it got rid of ALL of its "bad"... kept ALL of the "good"... but still professed a believe in "God"... that would be a problem for some.
I am just trying to understand why, if there IS no God... why they aren't just considered another kind of "service" industry. One that provides counseling services, rehab, necessities, health care, child/youth care, etc., etc., etc., etc. One that perhaps uses "God" to sell its products. You know, like the others use celebrities.
Get what I'm asking? If not, dear one, no worries. I said at the outset that I don't think like most folks... and this could be evidence of that. But since some get what I'm asking, I think it was a fair question.
BUT... thank YOU, dear one, for your comments and, as always, peace to you!
YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,
SA

Another question, if I may...

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