Its sad that so many people probably are paranoid about getting caught when they really should just be free. I know situations get complicated, but damn, we only get this one life. I can't imagine ever fearing what a J-dub elder could ask or do to me.
on the subject of elders reading this message board
I think a few elders and members of the R&F may come here to actually know more about their own religion. You won't find this level of discussion and insightful writing anywhere near a Kingdom Hall or from a WT publication.
There are adults exchanging ideas and facts here. JWs can't do that at the KH or with JWs who aren't also searching. When I was a mid-teen I was always looking for some adult JW who would be willing to really sit down and get dirty with me. I wanted to learn. I had a thirst for knowledge. My father did not have the intellectual capacity to retain or understand the deeper things the WT taught. My mom was much brighter and could understand concepts far better, but she was more about service and helping the old ladies at the KH run their errands.
On two occasions I actually had deep conversations with an older JW brother. Both times I came away with far more doubts about the Watchtower.
I really believe there are many elders who come here to get a broader knowledge. I totally agree with Jean-Luc that some of them may never be able to leave the WT, but still want to know the truth about the mess they're in.
"if elders come here to finger someone - how do they rationalize this? it's a huge break in logic. and it tells me they care about one thing, power/control. not dogma."
The same way they rationalize anything else. The organization must be protected. They rationalize lying to authorities in order to protect the organization from legal trouble. They rationalize using the term "past truth" instead of wrong teachign or false prophecy in order to protect the organization from accusations of being wrong.
I truly don't believe that elders are here right now trying to finger someone. UNLESS they have specific reason to be. Let's say Joe suddenly stops going to meetings. Joe doesn't want the elders to come over to his house to "encourage" him. Joe's family and close friends are also "less active" at the kingdom hall....yet they've remained close with Joe. Some of them have asked a few unnerving questions about the history of the society to the elders. This is a big red flag and it all gets traced back to Joe. The elders don't know what is going on but they know Joe is behind it. They may go to one of Joe's friends that asked an unnerving question and grill him endlessly. Feeling indimidated, Joe's friend spills the beans that Joe found out true information about the society on some site called JWN. Then whether it is the elders themselves...or someone from Bethel.....at THAT point.....I would not be surprised if SOMEONE started looking on the JWN site to see if they can dig up some dirt on Joe. It is still my belief that most elders do want to help Joe "readjust his thinking". But if Joe doesn't want to be "readjusted", and the elders fear that Joe's family and friends within the congregation may be influenced by him then they will do whatever it is they have to do to disfellowship Joe. Each day that goes by is another day Joe could reach someone else. At that point....they will show up at his house unannounced to "talk" with Joe. They will search the JWN website for clues as to his identity on that site. And they will grill his friends and family until they have enough "evidence" to convict him of apostasy.
Then they will DF Joe. All the true information about the society and their history and failed prophecies that he has uncovered is now worthless because his friends and family are not allowed to speak to him. If they do....they will be DF'd. Since Joe's friends all have family that are involved in the cult......none of them will risk talking to Joe for fear that their lives will be ripped apart too. At that point....the elders woudl have done their jobs. They eliminated the threat and protected the mother ship
There are a number of elders and other jws who no longer believe the wts party line, esp related to prophecy. They just keep quiet. They do read the boards. Folks often take it upon themselves to do things the wts has not asked them to do- like try and get names and congos by coming on here .
I know back in the 90's there were some of the younger computer savvy guys who would monitor the sites b/c once I had in my possession a list of known apostate email addresses. I managed to talk one of them into giving me the list ( to make sure mine wasn't own it) but did see a long list of the early apostates that frequented the message boards that came before these type web sites. these guys were not sanctioned by the wts, just looking to get pat on back " good work Nancy Drew".
thanks for sharing that violia. i remember reading a post a couple weeks ago, where the guy said he knew certain people from bethel were reading the board here. maybe paranoia.
one of the few reasons this subject interests me, is because i'm curious of just how desperately they want to control the flow of information. it intrigues me how little confidence they have in their message, seeing how far they might go to try and control the flow completely. certainly does sound like behavior exhibited by people who have "the truth". panic/red sirens at every counter piece of information, yea...
Sir82, lots of elders and ex elders here :-) we all dodnt yank the cord out... I always felt the truth coukd stand scrutiny... And it can! That how i know dub ies dont have the truth. It couldnt stand scrutiny :-)
they have always been able to control by putting locks on your mind. It was hard before the net began in earnest ( around 94) to find apostate material. I know there were books written but there was no way to easily advertise them. Now there is. This is of course why the wts is ranting against the net at the Dc's. They know folks are coming onto these sites b/c they see BOE letters, KM downloads, elder books,etc on the website. That must just freak them out knowing that they can't keep their info private , it is being leaked. All they have is fear, scare the jws into submission. I know jws who have never owned a computer and if they did certainly did not get on the net for any reason. This sort of reminds me of the hysteria surrounding the TV, then the VCR ( you could rent porn and watch it at home). Think , have they succeeded in stopping brothers from watching what they want in their home? NO, I knew an entire BOE that watched "Fatal Attraction" ,pretty racy for it's time.
I agree with the poster who said the wts is looking for copyright violations and leaked info and other sensitive material. They aren't concerned about pizza toppings. There are always those that want to play Dick Tracy so be careful who you give private info to if you are still inside the org.
I have known elders during the great apostasy years ( 80) who could justify almost anything to protect this org. theocratic warfare is what it is called and they can justify a lot of things in the name of that.
I wish i'd known that Reed xjws.
outsmartthesystem is correct excerpt if joe is not one of their friends to begin with, all osts said can happen very quickly. the axe can fall rapidly. if he is their buddy they will work with him.
i'm trying to wrap my head around the mental image of a boe watching fatal attraction together.
not together, but all members of the boe saw it and later admitted it.
There was a simply superb film called King Rat around WWII. The Allieds are taken as prisoners of war. I can't remember which theatre. The officers aren't leaders. Conditions are intolerable. The Red Cross is not allowed access. People's personalities and ability to negotiate for necessities become much more important than military rank. A lowly serviceman hatches the idea to breed rats as food in exchange for cigarettes, liquor, contraband. The entire camp is run by him. The enemy comes to him for favors.
The war ends. Wild celebration breaks out. In the day or two that it will take the Allieds to reach the camp, people return to their ordinary social status. This massively powerful friend, beloved of all, realizes he has nothing without his rats. He has to return to being mr. ordinary and overlooked. It is not easy for him.
When I first ill, I visited an Episcopal convent. I had no idea they had them. It was a personal referral. They bowed to the mother superior and asked her permission to go to the corner. The thought of bowing to my mother made me want to laugh so hard. I was young and the younger sisters welcomed my company. They started begging the mother superior for me to join every service. She reserved judgment. It was clear she feared my worldy influence - I travelled without permission, attended dances, saw avant-garde, etc. It was one of the proudest moments of my life. It reminded me of getting an A+ in something.
What keywords or legal situations do you suggest? Frankly, I have not seen anything earthshattering here. Perhaps the pedophilia. They can imagine what we say,