Why Arguments and Debates on the Trinity are a Waste of Time

by AllTimeJeff 95 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • AllTimeJeff
    AllTimeJeff

    Well, I guess I care enough to respond to Sulla.... :-p

    While I certainly sympathize with those poor souls who drank so deeply of JW theology that they actually agreed to be missionaries for the cause, and understand striking a pose against Christian orthodoxy as a self-potecting act, I have to point out that AllTimeJeff has spectacularly missed the point.

    Your spectacularly condescending attempt at empathy is duly noted.

    For example, while I cleary said that the hoary metaphor likening the Trinity to water was empty, Jeff can't be bothered to grasp that and clearly prefers listening to himself point out how weak the metaphor is. Or, I point out that the question depends on whether we can suppose nature and person are really separable concepts and Jeff gets all geeked out by the idea that, in humans, they are not.

    It does me good for you to realize how weak the metaphor is. I also appreciate how in this statement you refer to the Trinity correctly as a concept, and not as it is claimed to be, god.

    Finally, Jeff swings for the fences and, no doubt typing with authority, insists that the Trinity is too, illogical!

    While I wouldn't say that there is no such thing as a poor argument for the Trinity, or suggest that some dumb people believe it, I think we can see an interesting inversion of the original post in Jeff's follow-ups. Fact it, Jeff really doesn't know what he is talking about, but is happy in his ignorance to mock the worst arguments of the other side and to congratulate himself on his sophistication. In this, there isn't a bit of difference between Jeff now and Gilead Jeff: both were willing to attack the orthodox Christian belief without bothering to understand it.

    I certainly wouldn't say that there is such thing as a good argument for the Trinity. And for the record, perfectly sensible, nice intelligent people, sprinkled with a dash of intellectual "I'm holding my ears", believe in the Trinity. I for one would bet you are a fine and decent person. I will certainly start with that premise.

    I realize I mock the worst arguments of the Trinity. I would also be happy to mock the best arguments of the Trinity. Regardless of which arguments you rate as strong or weak, they are only words for a concept of a god that the majority of the people on this planet have barely heard of, let alone have experienced in proveable, tangible ways.

    It's a shame that the Christian god, whether Triune or monotheistic, is limited to the strong or weak arguments of the person who is arguing for the existence of their god. It is a shame that your Triune god must rely on you for strong arguments Sulla, and others for weak arguments. But I bet your Triune god loves you more for how stunningly awesome you do at explaining the Trinity better then other Trinitarians.

    Your god is the Trinity. You condescendingly state that we are only poo pooing the bad arguements. So there must be some better, more clear ones that exist? Let me know!

    In this way, poor Jeff has failed to progress since leaving the JWs. He is, in his heart and mind, really still a dumb JW: triumphant in his ignorance, sure of his intellectual superiority, completely uninterested in the facts. It's no wonder he was such a great JW, hell, he still is!

    I laugh. Seriously, you remind me of superior acting Trinitarians who though comfortable in their arrogance, forget that the teachings of Jesus are more important then the concept of who he is.

    If you worship Jesus, whether as part of a Trinity or not, I am pretty sure he doesn't appreciate you acting like a superior, condescending, arrogant ass. Don't get too caught up in the concept, just be a good Christian. I am sure that Jesus will take care of the rest.

  • AllTimeJeff
    AllTimeJeff

    As an aside, I think it interesting that strong Trinitarians and the leadership of JW's have one thing in common when arguing for their particular theology; they will not honestly join in any conversation in which they do not control the questions.

    Sulla, JW's as you may or may not know won't discuss certain aspects of their theology until a person is sufficiently indoctrinated and accepting of other basic teachings first.

    It has been my experience that some (not all) Trinitarians are similar.

    You state that there are better intellectual arguments. I am sure there are.

    You put it on me to find them? No, that isn't a fair premise. You are the believer. Defend your faith!

    I am a non believer, willing to believe what the evidence shows. If as a sincere non believer, I call you out, it is your choice to either be condescending, or you can actually engage in a conversation. Whatever. My life goes on. Your arrogance will too.

    But as my first statement in this thread suggests, these debates go no where.

    Regardless of how superior your view of the Trinity may be, it is still just words. Just a concept.

    There still is no Triune god around, outside of the concept you have of the Trinity in your head.

    Cheers!

  • neverendingjourney
    neverendingjourney

    I enjoy trinity debates in the same way I enjoy debates over who the more powerful wizard was: Gandalf or Dumbledore.

  • journey-on
    journey-on

    I have tried to understand the Trinity Doctrine. But, I was raised a JW and sometimes something is so deeply ingrained, that the necessary mechanistic mental tools are just too weakly attached to a concept that they can't hold on to the idea long enough to get it to stick firmly.

    Finally, one day the phrase "The Creator Creating Creation" is what came to me. I pondered that for a while and it seemed reasonable to me. I envisioned my daddy out in the garage building a table for our family. He (the subject) can stand alone. The act of building can be seen as an individual act (the verb). And the table can be viewed separately (the object). But, when you put them all together, you have the whole idea...the complete sentence....the reason....the love, power, wisdom, the God of Creation.

  • shamus100
    shamus100

    I'll never understand why atheists care about this at all. ;) I think they are still angry at the flying spaghetti monster or something. I respectably disagree with those that have faith - what one sentence or paragraph in the bible has to do with anything I believe in means nothing. Kiss the monkey. My fleas have abated...

    In other words, what neverendingjourney just said. :D

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento
    I have tried to understand the Trinity Doctrine. But, I was raised a JW and sometimes something is so deeply ingrained, that the necessary mechanistic mental tools are just too weakly attached to a concept that they can't hold on to the idea long enough to get it to stick firmly.

    In its simplest form the trinity is about the nature of God, Christ and the HS.

    Christ is begotten of God and NOT created, hince Christ is God just as a son begotten of a human Father is Human.

    The HS is the spirit of God ( and Christ) and as such, is God.

    That is the first step to understanding the Trinity.

    Christ is God because Christ can be nothing else but God since he was begotten OF God.

  • ziddina
    ziddina

    OOOOO, this oughta be good!!

    Thread by All Time Jeff and comments by a wide variety of people - even Shamus!!! [rubs hands together with glee!!]

    Marking...

  • shamus100
    shamus100

    I am the light. And the truth - light's truth's light.

    Happiness is achieved by sending me $10,000.00 in the form of a cashiers cheque: Payable to:

    Shamus Killbreath

    P.O. Box 987

    Inuvik, Canada

    y7s 2m1

    Thank you. :D

  • jaguarbass
    jaguarbass

    People that believe in the trinity, believe in the bible, they read their bible.

    The bible says the preaching of the cross is foolishness to those that are perishing.

    The bible also says you are saved by faith.

    The way to get faith is by asking Jesus, God for faith.

    In a way its circular reasoning, but that is one method to come to believe in the trinity.

    A lot of those who believe in the trinity have peace that passes all understanding.

    Peace is very important, people take drugs, drink alcohol, see medical doctors trying to find it.

    So I agree its foolish to argue with someone who believes in the trinity, because they have peace

    and they are not going to give it up to become one with their percieved kaos and confusion of the world.

  • Sulla
    Sulla

    AllTimeJeff: Sulla, JW's as you may or may not know won't discuss certain aspects of their theology until a person is sufficiently indoctrinated and accepting of other basic teachings first.

    It has been my experience that some (not all) Trinitarians are similar.

    You state that there are better intellectual arguments. I am sure there are.

    You put it on me to find them? No, that isn't a fair premise. You are the believer. Defend your faith!

    Sorry, Jeff, this thread is about whether it makes sense to argue the Trinity. I think you are mostly correct to say that there is no point to it, though for different reasons. You think it's pointless because those who accept the Trinity are, basically, stupid. I think it is because those who reject the Trinity are ignorant and proud. Seems like we two would be the last to get into a discussion about the Trinity itself.

    I am a non believer, willing to believe what the evidence shows. If as a sincere non believer, I call you out, it is your choice to either be condescending, or you can actually engage in a conversation. Whatever. My life goes on. Your arrogance will too.

    You are pretty much the one who called believers stupid, Jeff. And you are the one who seems not to be familiar with the arguments in support of the Trinity -- I mean the good arguments -- and who seems not to care. One of us is arrogant, that's for sure.

    But as my first statement in this thread suggests, these debates go no where.

    Regardless of how superior your view of the Trinity may be, it is still just words. Just a concept.

    There still is no Triune god around, outside of the concept you have of the Trinity in your head.

    So you say, Jeff. I trust it wouldn't lower the level of this debate to say: IS TOO A TRINITY!

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