Question I Asked a JW at My Door Today

by Broken Promises 16 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Broken Promises
    Broken Promises

    Background: A JW has been calling on me since April. I have told her that my relatives are JWs (true) to explain my knowledge of JWism. I've written about her before, you can find other topics I've started on my discussions with her. I am playing the role of a person who believes that all Christians go to heaven.

    Our biggest point of disagreement is whether all Christians go to heaven or not. She's showed me the usual scriptures that are higgily-piggily scattered across the Bible, but so far she hasn't proved (to my satisfaction) that Christians are also destined to stay on earth.

    Today she arrived with an older guy (an elder perhaps) and her sermon today was on the apostasy of the Christian congregation. No, I'm not joking. She didn't explain what the term "apostasy" was, as I'm sure most non-JWs wouldn't know the term. Maybe she assumed I'd know what she meant.

    She read the scripture about the broad and spacious road, and the narrow one. She said that being a Christian wouldn't be an easy one. Hmm, ok, but what does it prove? I didn't ask her that but looking back, she didn't explain why she used that scripture.

    She also used the "sheep in lambs clothing" scripture (can't remember the actual scripture references, sorry). I agreed with her (lol). I didn't have the heart to say that I could liken the wolves to being the WTS, lol.

    Anyway, after too-ing and fro-ing as we usually do, we came back to the subject of heavenly life vs earthly life forever.

    I told her that there was a scripture saying that some would like their ears "tickled". She smiled as she knew the scripture, and probably happy that I had some Bible knowledge. I said, that could apply to the idea of life on earth forever playing with the pandas. It's a nice idea, but is it too easy to like having our ears "tickled" by that idea than really following what the Bible says?

    I asked her, if an earthly paradise was such a big part of God's Kingdom, why didn't Jesus speak more about it?

    She brought up two scriptures, the one where Jesus said that the evildoer would be with him in paradise, and also the "meek will inherit the earth" one.

    I said, two scriptures??? How long was Jesus' ministry? 3 1/2 years. So in all that time, he only spoke of the idea of man living on earth forever only twice???

    So I asked her, come back and tell me why Jesus never spoke of an earthly kingdom? Why was everything he said referring to God's Kingdom was as if it was a heavenly one, not an earthly one?

    I know she won't be able to answer that question. Her only defense at the time was that he was speaking to those destined for the heavenly class, the 144,000. Yes, but it's not a literal number, I said. She made the point that we'd have to agree to disagree on that one. (?)

    I admit I accidently got a little heated during our discussion. It's soooo frustrating to encounter a JW's blindness, unwilling and unable to open their mind up to new ideas. They have the truth and no one else does (that's a side point I brought up as well, that the JWs believe that they alone have "the truth". She denied that they do, or that it's an arrogant stance to take. Hmmm)

    Due to the unwillingness for either of us to agree on some points, I got the feeling she was willing to not return. She actually asked if I'd like her to keep calling. I said I was happy to discuss things with her. I don't want to give up on her just yet. Part of me wants to, but a bigger part of me likes the challenge of trying to crack through the thickness of a JW's mindset.

    I like a challenge.

  • watersprout

    I have found when dubbies come a knocking and you question their beliefs they get all irritated and act as though you are keeping them. I am now down as a do not call purely because they wouldn't stay and talk with me. As soon as I made it clear I wanted to talk they buggered off! All they wanted to do was leave me the mags.

    Good luck trying to crack the mindset of a dubbie. Hopefully though you will say something that will cause that lightbulb to light up above their heads....


  • Broken Promises
    Broken Promises
    Hopefully though you will say something that will cause that lightbulb to light up above their heads....

    That is mainly why I'm doing this. Even though I didn't realise it at the time, questions that householders asked and I couldn't answer were the gateway to my thinking outside the square.

    And even if it doesn't work with her, it will be at least be practise for when someone who is willing to use their mind, does come my way.

  • punkofnice

    Yeah. It's frustrating isn't it!?!?

    Matt 5:5 'the meek...' the watchtower used to say the 'meek' were the 144K annointed ones. On another thread concernedJW said the WTB$ have changed their stance on this (as usual, they can't hold a doctrine long without changing it), and it refers to ones destined to live on earth.

    I haven't seen this myself and am interested in where the change was.

    Rev 19:1 shows the 'great crowd' in heaven.

    If the 144K is literal thesurely they are all virgins and Jewish men! Again the WTB$ cherry picks what it wants and decides how they want to apply it.

    Jesus told the naughty man that he would be with him in paradise, yes..........but DID NOT follow it with 'earth'! Jesus didn't specify 'paradise earth'.

    Again, the WTB$ plays on what ISN'T said. Very crafty. I feel sorry for the JWs to be honest. They don't really look critically at the whacky doctrines they are commanded to believe (or face shunning), they just rely on the GB to be right.

    It's only when they are called out on scripture/logic they do mental summersaults to ensure the WTB$ is always right! Ver sad!

  • nugget

    It is hard talking to witnesses because they do not listen. Apostacy was an odd choice of topic to bring up, does she think you may be an apostate and trying to suss you out bringing the older guy along to check you out? To bring out the word without explanation is poor teaching at best.

    You may not get through to her but can't blame you for having a go I wish you every success.

  • Broken Promises
    Broken Promises

    Another thing I forgot to mention:

    The JW asked, why create the earth if it wasn't to be inhabited?

    I replied, hmm, what about the other planets and untold galaxies in the universe? Why create them if they're not inhabited either?

    (I was secretly happy with myself for thinking up that reply on the spot! Normally I think of replies after the person has gone.)

  • sizemik

    BP . . . I noticed you mentioned an older man possibly an Elder? . . . did he have much input? . . . what do you think might have been his purpose in being there?

  • Broken Promises
    Broken Promises
    I noticed you mentioned an older man possibly an Elder? . . . did he have much input? . . . what do you think might have been his purpose in being there?

    He had very little imput. At first he stood there reading along the scriptures the lady was reading (she'd say aloud each scripture so he could follow along). But as we debated a little, he kind of lost interest in the conversation. Maybe he could tell I was a thinker who wasn't easily influenced.

    The discussion went on for about 15 mins, and he was kind of looking around as if he was looking for somewhere to sit. The discussion was held at my door cos I won't invite them in for various reasons I won't go into. He ended up sitting on my steps for a few mins. The JW lady said he had a bad leg or something. Normally I'd be sympathetic but I figured, if he's witnessing, he should be prepared that he may be standing at a door for periods of time. If he doesn't like it he can find other avenue for witnessing.

    Was he an elder? Maybe. I assumed at first he was. He had no imput into the conversation, except to show her one scripture to show me to back up some point. So he must have been listening at some stage.

  • sizemik

    I wondered if he was there to "evaluate" your potential to convert . . . sounds like he was more of a mostly disinterested accompaniment on someone elses RV . . . which is more what to expect I suppose.

    If she reurns, maybe you could nail her down on the original question a bit more . . . get her on to Rev 19;1 as PON suggested and get her to explain how it harmonises with Rev 7 (great crowd in heaven or on earth) . . . or not.

    Sounds like you created a fair bit of doubt anyway . . . so she might have hit the "give up" button as you say . . . or not maybe. It will be interesting if she does come back . . . that would suggest to me that an teeny bit of doubt may exist.

    ED: this is what . . . her third visit?

  • cantleave

    I'd say you've been rumbled!

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