Question about scriptural divorce and elder procedures…

by unshackled 31 Replies latest members private

  • Band on the Run
    Band on the Run

    A while ago, a court would make findings about adultery. Do they consider themselves competent to make this decision based on no eviidence and what they surmise by breaking the law and staking out private residences.

    My major point is why does anyone not a fervent JW acknowledge their purported authority. By speaking with them concerning intimate family members, you are breaking trust with your self, violating your own privacy. Coming from my view, it is not whether there is adultery but what right do they have to overreach. We know private investigators can be hired to find these matters. P Is probably do it very rarely today b/c of the popularity of no-fault divorce.

    Sexuality is supposed to be private. I don't see much difference between giving them an acknowledgment and giving them a play by play of oral sex. This is criminal conduct and they can also be sued. They are placing their deviant interests ahead of the damages the org, not the org but themselves as indivuals, would pay.

    Why disassociate with them if you still play their music? Also, I can see one former spouse granting this to another spouse out of respect. It amazes me that people have to get divorce but can still love and respect each other. This information can be placed in a filing with the court and included in the divorce finalization.

    Time and time again, it is not their doctrines that drive me crazy. Jesus did give only ground for divorce. Of course,most Christians believe abuse is adultery. So, all right. Does the Pope sit in cheap cars and spy? This is NOT the least about adultery and every bit about mind control. Show me where Jesus said in Matthew to sit up in a cheap car all night. Not that a Rolls or Mercedes would make it fine.

  • james_woods
    james_woods

    As an elder, I knew of one case in which a divorced witness woman married a decade-younger pioneer and she had no evidence of adultery. The elders simply overlooked it in their case because everybody hated her ex-husband, who quit the JWs.

    Show me where Jesus said in Matthew to sit up in a cheap car all night. Not that a Rolls or Mercedes would make it fine.

    Just as a matter of interest, the Rolls Royce owners club views calling their cars a "Rolls" as a vulgarity.

  • unshackled
    unshackled

    Thanks for the comments Desirous, Anony Mous, Flipper, jean-luc, Band and JWoods. It seemed strange to me at the time, but thinking of the two witnesses rule it makes sense it is somewhat standard procedure. And as undercover pointed out, it will vary from elder to elder how hardcore they are about it. And there are the double standards as well....depends who you are determines whether they give you the gears or not. Nothing new there.

    I thought the phone call thing was messed up, but spying on people outside their homes is downright creepy. I'm with Band on this one, sounds like criminal activity.

    Guess I shouldn't be surprised by anything the Dubs do....hell, they'll let their children die over the blood issue. But staking out and spying on ex-members is a new one. Really sounds like something Scientologists would do.

  • james_woods
    james_woods
    Really sounds like something Scientologists would do.

    I seriously would not be surprised if the Scientologists actually got it from the witnesses.

  • NewChapter
    NewChapter

    I was held hostage for 5 years by this "scriptural divorce" thingy. I was young and had not been the one to leave the marriage. My husband wasn't a witness, and I wasn't sure how I would even know if he moved on because I didn't believe he would tell me. Why should he?

    Later I got married to someone that got baptized. That was a disaster too---I don't make the best marriage decisions.

    The elders told me that if my husband was not baptized, then I didn't need 2 witnesses. It was between me and Jehovah, so if I had a confession or proof, that was enough. If he WAS baptized then I needed a confession or proof observed by 2 witnesses. Proof was if someone of the opposite sex (or a known homosexual) spent the entire night.

    Well this is problematic. First it requires the creepy stake out. Second, just because someone crashes on your couch, it doesn't mean you had sex with them. So it's not even valid "proof". So it doesn't even "prove" anything and it lowers the ex to stalker status.

    It's good to be out.

    NC

  • no more kool aid
    no more kool aid

    I think it has been that way all along. When my JW parents were going through this my lovely mother put me on the phone with my father's mistress to hear of my father's exploits.........I was 14 years old. Then I had to repeat the tale to a panel of three dirty old men........I was 14 years old. NMKA

  • Band on the Run
    Band on the Run

    No More Kool Aid. Their actions were outrageous. Sorry. I could not begin to tell you how embarassed I would be. Also, their child would be the last person my parents would tell.

  • Scully
    Scully

    I'm thinking they must have gone out on a recon mission to spy on you and determine whether you entertained a lady friend overnight, or whether you spent the night at a lady friend's house.

    Because, as we all know , the only possible reason for two people of the opposite sex to spend time under the same roof in JW-land is to get naked and get freaky.

  • NewChapter
    NewChapter

    The thing that is SO ridiculous is how they police EVERYTHING.

    Some spouses KNOW their ex's have moved on but can't prove it. They can't remarry. Some spouses may witness an overnight visit, but they KNOW nothing happened. Yet they are free to remarry. This is the problem. The org CLAIMS you are only answerable to god. But they leave NOTHING to conscience! Some people give false confessions (I know of this happening) simply to get the ex off their backs. The ex knows it's false, but all is good. I don't have a strong enough word for how ridiculous this is. This is the problem with being legalistic. People start to simply follow rules and not their own consciences. Their consciences become weak and lazy and fall asleep. Just follow the rules. The org doesn't trust anyone to make any decision, and they don't trust their god to see through it! They must play god.

    UGH.

    NC

  • No Room For George
    No Room For George

    Hey Shack, I was reading through the Flock book researching procedures on an unrelated matter, and came across this which recalled to me your thread. I typed it out for those who don't have a copy of the Flock Book, pages 129-131 for those that have a copy. Forgive me for any typos.

    13. Even if the accused mate is not one of Jehovah's Witnesses (disfellowshipped, disassociated, or never baptized), two witnesses are also generally required to establish wrongdoing that would provide a basis for Scriptural freedom. An exception may be made, however, if the unbeliever privately makes an unambiguous confession of adultry to the Christian mate. In such a case, if the innocent Christian mate believes that the confession is true and does not wish to reconcile, he can submit a letter to the elders outlining his situation. The body of elders should then consider the letter. Is ther any known reason to conclude other than that the unbelieving mate has been immoral? For example, was the confession worded ambiguously? Did the unbeliever later deny making the confession? If the unbeliever is willing to speak with the elders and matters are unclear, the elders may choose to ask the accused mate directly. If there is no known reason to conclude otherwise, the innocent mate can be allowed to take responsibility before Jehovah for obtaining a Scriptural divorce; if he remarries, no judicial action will be taken.-W77 pp. 607-608.

    14. The following constitutes rejection by the innocent mate: 1. The innocent mate inititates a divorce either before or after learning of adultry. 2. The innocent mate signs a divorce decree indicating he does not object to a divorce initiated by the guilty mate, either before or after learning of the adultery. Note: On some lands it is possible for the innocent mate to sign divorce documents that stipulate custody of the children and financial support without indicating he agrees with the divorce; his signing such papers in itself would not indicate a rejection. -00 WT 12/15 pp.28-29 3. Though verbally expressing forgiveness and not seeking a divorce, the innocent mate refuses to resume sexual relations for a very prolonged period of time, a year, or even years. Before indicating to the guilty mate that he is free to pursue a Scriptural divorce, the elders should consult with the branch office. Note: The innocent mate is not required to make a quick decision whether to forgive or not. -W74 671-672

    Adulterous Marriage

    15. If a divorced person remarries and he was not Scripturally free to do so-in other words, if adultery and rejection by the innocent mate had not occurred-he has entered into an adulterous marriage. In Jehovah's eyes, he has married someone while still bound to another. Entering into such a marriage would call for judicial action.

    16. If the disfellowshipped one was eventually reinstated, the elders would be very cautious in extending and special privileges. He could share in the cleaning and repair of the local Kingdom Hall. He may eventually give student talks in the Theocratic Ministry School if his doing so would not disturb others. However, he would not be assigned to help with literature, accounts, magazines, attendants, or similar privileges in the congregation as long as the innocent former mate is alive, unmarried, and has not been guilty of por-nei-a'.- W83 3/15 p.29

    17. If a Christian did not enter into an adulterious marriage but deliberately committed adultery in a scheming way so as to end his marriage or he pressured the innocent mate to reject him and eventually agree to a divorce, he has dealt treacherously with her. (Mal. 2:14-16) His conduct is similar to entering into an adulterous marriage, and he would not qualify for special privileges for many years.

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