I have a question on the Circuit Accounts Scam thread

by gubberningbody 43 Replies latest jw friends

  • gubberningbody
    gubberningbody

    Sweeney,

    I'm glad you answered. I think it's an important point, and one that I'd like to see along with others in Wikipedia, because everyone goes there. The people we might be able to reach won't hit this site unless they're like I was, already on my way out.

    I think we just need to be really concise about the matter otherwise it just sounds like we're "mad apostates".

    Has anyone explored the possibility of creating a non-profit .ORG-like entity that would be an association for "apostates" of all religions? It would seem to me that if you as did I left the WTBS because the WTBS betrayed the truth, no matter how cleverly they did so, you left because you "made the truth our own" and this dissension was simply unacceptable to "apostates of truth" like the WTBS.

    If there was an organization, and perhap there already is, perhaps this group could start a page on the Wikipedia which could underscore the issues with the WTBS (and other intolerant religious entities)

  • jay88
    jay88

    Taken fromlifeisgood-What is the Watchtower Borg. Post?

    I researched all this with some colleagues back in the 90s. You might want to sit down and hold onto something before you start reading this.

    Russel started a series of corporations. There were 50 stockholders who could vote. This number never changed. Russel gave away "stock" in exchange for contributions but that stock was not voting stock. He later got most of that back anyway.

    The New York chapter also started a bunch of corporations, but all of those are subsidiary to Russel's corporations. The WTBTS now has hundreds of interlocking, dependent corporations, trying to trace ownership through that mess is not easy. They did this for a reason.

    The governing body members do not own stock and cannot vote the stock. They own NOTHING.

    The stock passed to whoever the original stockholders left their shares to when they died. This has happened several times since the early days.

    Russel was a master scam artist. As was Rutherford, as was Knorr.

    The WTBTS on many occassions has waived the spiritual requirements and brought people in to Bethel because of a person possessing skills that were required.

    Back in the early 90s a 'brother' came into the truth and was accepted to Bethel and was making key decisions in a very short period of time. I think it was less than one year from first studying to being at Bethel. This man prior to this was one of the top real estate professionals in New York city. Look at the real estate transactions by the WTBTS in New York since then. They have made billions of dollars in profits because of this real estate trading. Now, no one is going to tell me that a bunch of elderly people with no business background, most of them were janitors, made all these deals on their own. There is no way that happened.

    There are so many scams to cheat people out of money. Remember the assembly parking ticket scam? They tell the convention center facility managers that parking will be free, then they sell "parking tickets" at the kindgdom hall. They did this because if they charge for parking at the facility, they have to share that money with the convention center. I know for a fact that this is a scam because the Augusta Ga. convention center manager forbid JWs from every renting his facilities again because of this theft. I worked their part time at the time. Then came the mandatory vountary contribtion for literature. When you pick up literature you have to make a contribution to cover it, but then when you place the literature you have to ask for a contribution which you also put in the donation box. Any time a Kingdom Hall gets built the local congregation is on the hook for all the money plus interest. Assemblies are a money making opportunity because the WTBTS representatives guilt the attendees into giving donations by lying about the finances of the assembly on the morning of the last day. But they leave out the donations of the last day in the numbers they report to the attendees.

    Now, here is the thing that really makes you want to scream. They tell elderly JWs to donate their assets to the WTBTS in their wills.

    Every Witness is told at least twice a year to set a goal on how much they will donate per month to the local congregation. Any excess is sent by the local congregation to the WTBTS in New York.

    Now, here is what most JWs do not know. The WTBTS pretends that they are barely making it. Some colleagues and I researched this in the early 90s, and if you have kept up with the real estate trading in New York since then, the WTBTS has a net worth of over 100 million dollars. I usually say "tens of millions" because most people find this number shocking. The WTBTS has a very diversified investment portfolio. They own land, buildings (which produce income through rents), antique automobiles, stocks, bonds, commodities, artwork, jewelry, precious metals, rare coins, you name it, they own it.

    Now, here is what most JWs do not understand. The people who control this wealth are not the governing body. You have to go back to the original 50 stock holders. It is the group of people that owns this original stock today that controls the assets. I don't have the research artifacts any more, I lost interest in the WTBTS back in the 90s and all that research was on a computer that I later sold, but this is not that hard to figure out.

    The governing body members are fools. Some know that they are liars and some don't know. But, they are still fools. Some of them have deluded themselves into believing that they really do speak for God, some of them know that this is nonsense. But, the owners of the stock and the lawyers call the shots. I don't know if the governing body knows that these people exist or not. They have to know that someone besides them owns the stock and has the voting rights.

    Here is why I know that "spiritual" men are not behind this. I know some spiritual people. I never knew any JW who was a spiritual person. A truly spiritual person does not have to tell you that they are spiritual. You know that they are. A truly spiritual person would never do any of the for profit things that the WTBTS does. Never. I followed the spiritual path for a while but I realized that I can never be like any of these spiritual people. I'm not sure why exactly. They have something inside them that I could never have.

    Also, there is something about the WTBTS' literature that is very profound. I have read all of their literature that I could find with an open mind. Before the internet I was a subscriber to the book lists of about fifty or so large used book resellers. Now, these same book sellers are on Amazon and sites like that but before the internet they would mail you their book lists every couple of weeks or so. Or, you could tell them to let you know if they found a certain book.

    I have a cousin who is not a Witness and never had an interest in them but for some reason he had all of the studies in the scriptures and other historic JW books. I think my grandfather had the studies in the scriptures and left them to my cousin. My cousin lived with my grandparents.

    Now, I am not trying to brag here, just saying what happened. When I was in the 7th grade a teacher taught many of us how to speed read. When I was researching the WTBTS and Bible Students literature I read over a thousand watchtower magazines and I read every book of theirs that I could find.

    And this is what I figured out. You better sit down. The tone of voice that comes from their literature is evil. And it is propaganda. Some of the highest quality propaganda that you can find anywhere. On a level of Hitler and the NAZIs. About tone of voice. Whenever you read a book, you sense the writer's tone of voice. Some writers are good enough that they can establish the tone of voice on purpose. Others have a single tone of voice that comes through in everything they right.

    The literature of the WTBTS ALL has the same evil tone of voice. Now, when you read their literature for true understanding you have to forget the pretty pictures of the happy people in paradise. You have to forget that these are "Christian" authors. And just pretend that you found a magazine or a book with the cover ripped off and you have no idea who wrote it. And listen to the tone of voice.

    This literature talks to the reader like the reader is some kind of idiot, the literature is very condescending and insulting. The reader is assumed to be dishonest. The reader is assumed to probably die at Armageddon anyway if they don't do exactly as they are told.

    This literature makes my skin crawl because I know what is going on. There is someone or something behind the authorship that we never get to see. No, not Satan. No, not the demons. I don't know exactly how to explain this. One thing I do know. The authors of this literature know that this is a scam. They know that it is propaganda. The WTBTS literature is propaganda on a level of quality of the writings and speeches of Hitler and the NAZIs. This is world class propaganda. I don't think for a second that the governing body are smart enough to produce such world class propaganda. But, someone involved in their literature production is smart enough, and evil enough and a good enough propagandist.

    I am sorry but I don't know the precise technical terms to explain this more scientifically.

    If you have the time take a cross section of their books that span a long period of time, and read them all, then you will see the same disrespectful, dishonest, condescending tone of voice in all their books.

    So, master propagandists who control a huge networth and the goal of everything that they do is to grow the membership in order to grow the rate of increase of the net worth are in charge and I do not believe that this is the governing body. The governing body is a bunch of elderly janitors.

    ........................................

    I don't know how true any of this is, but it is worth considering.

  • therevealer
    therevealer

    And the "society" gets richer and richer. And the rank and file say "are they not jah's channel?" all hail the SOCIETY or gb or annointed or faithful and discreet slave or whatever, LOL

    One of my early memories, prior to the elder arrangement, while I was quite a noobie, was my brother after the noon meeting of the congregation overseers being rather frustrated over this very issue. He was very strong on sending the maximum that they could to the society. Others felt they should make sure to keep enough so as not to force them to squeeze the publishers so much. Those meetings of the higher ranking brothers in the circuits and the "love" shown, LOL, by the arguing and fighting over such tripe should have woke me up to the truth about the truth.

  • clearpoison
    clearpoison

    I don't think this is really question about scam in legalistic accounting sort of type. But it could very well count as moral scam.

    As far as I understand the circuit or district will actually never see the true costs of assembly hall, they just buy services (facilities for convention) from it or in question about 3rd party facilities they are kind of sub-renter of organisation. Again without knowing what is the true cost. As any good organisation or firm selling services assembly hall/organisation will include certain amount of profit in their offer. Offer seems to be based on attendant fee. In this case circuit/district never takes competing offers and always accepts what is proposed. So before the convention starts circuit/district has agreed to pay certain amount of money (pre-deficit), and organisation is already at this point due for profit from forthcoming convention. I guess they will also calculate some sort of fee for released litterature too.

    At conveniently enough stage of convention the financial status for this specific convention (not for assembly hall in general or 3rd party facility) is announced, donations in convention are calculated as circuits/districts income and not yet as part of the fund for worldwide work. If in ideal case the story at this stage shows that convention costs (again not true costs but the offered attendee fees) are not yet met, this should lead to financial activity around donation boxes, as for sure friends do not want to leave their circuit in deficit.

    If everything works as expected, the donations will cover the conventions costs (remember not the actual costs but the offered rate), and the surplus can then be donated to organisation for worldwide work. So, what is the income of the organisation, firstly the profit calculated in attendee fee compared to true costs of running the assembly hall or 3rd party facility. On top of that they will receive the surplus donation.

    What if everything was based on open books principle without profit margin? Well the convention cost would drop for circuits/districts. It could in worst case mean that the donations would in very early stage cover for the true costs, and announcing to public that the convention is already in surplus would at least in some cases keep the wallets closed, "ok, convention got clear papers, I can then donate back home to boxes in Kingdom Hall, it's much simpler that way". Do you think some of potential donors would not remember this "promise" when they got back home?

    This is not scam for sure, this is exactly how business-world works, every value adding actor wants/needs to add their profit in calculation. What might be morally scam is that this pre-defined profit is not openly declared, I think most of the people there thinks that announced cost must be about the true cost based on experience from earlier conventions.

    I do not know if my speculation is worth a wooden penny but this is my understanding of the concept here. This is not the only case where profit is present in hidden form, it was there already when the books and mags were sold.

    CP

  • therevealer
    therevealer

    Just my two bits worth to "gubberningbody". I don't think it is being suggested that they are "cheating". It is just that the system they use is all about extracting the maximum amount possible. And when it comes to money they are masters at condemning the "churchs" and their tithing and collection plates, while doing the same thing in sneakier ways. They have donation boxes everywhere. Several at the kingdom hall, more than you can count at assemblies and now "evidently" even atm's at assemblies. They even had contribution boxes at the homes where the book studies were held. They regularly have accounts reports at the meetings at the local halls, and at assemblies, and always bewailing a shortfall that they just know will be taken care of. LOL

  • sickandtired
    sickandtired

    This thread is interesting and it makes me wonder who are the ones benefiting from all this money? I mean, the GB don't seem to be living in the lap of luxury - correct me if I'm wrong. I just have read a lot about the WT corporation getting tons of money (I don't doubt that for a second), but I wonder who are the ones living high on the hog? Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

  • therevealer
    therevealer

    My opinion only, but I don't think anyone gets to live "high on the hog". I believe it is all about prestige. If they want to continue as "CEO's" they need to continue to build or at least maintain the "empire". Just look at the costs of what they are doing in Jonestown, er Patterson.

  • OUTLAW
    OUTLAW

    The WBT$ is Cheating JW`s..

    Make up a ficticious WBT$ Assembly Debt..Make it larger than the actual dept..

    Have JW`s pay the Ficticious WBT$ Assembly Debt..

    Send all the Excess Cash,to the WBT$..

    Multiply that by WBT$ Assemblys held all over the world..

    It`s a huge WBT$ Cash Rip-Off Scam..

    mutley-ani1.gif image by GeneralWaco...OUTLAW

  • AwareBeing
    AwareBeing

    It's a stagged tactic of manipulation described as; Announcement Folly's,

    were a speaker states the dire accounts report and end with a cherry salutation

    of "Jehovah's blessing for your charitable donations." It happened at all the assy's

    my family went to, and at of them a larger amount was in it by next assy! At first ,

    we thought: "Wow, God's spirit is on the org! or Wow, God must have made a bro. a millionaire!"

    After some years we counted them, 1 out of all the circuits we knew, and very few rich ones.

    So by the accounts numbers being magically manipulated through slick sales techniques

    from premature announcements, 'well-ah! The flock is scammed, sheared, and discarded until the next assy.

  • gubberningbody
    gubberningbody

    Of course the point of all this is that if evil is being conducted by the WTBS, exactly WHO is profiting personally?

    I think the organization has reached the point where it acts as if it were a sentient creature and the individual publisher is a cell in this larger organism.

    No single cell or groups of cells benefit, but the organization does.

    We're not comfortable with that.

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