I have a question on the Circuit Accounts Scam thread

by gubberningbody 43 Replies latest jw friends

  • gubberningbody
  • Mad Sweeney
  • gubberningbody


    I know you're mad at them and so am I, but the money is accounted for as far as I know.

    I was hoping someone had some real shit on them. If this is all that there is, then it's nothing that anyone who wasn't already convinced about them would even care about.

    What I need to know is if money isn't accounted for.

    If deficits are discussed in advance and deposits get made (and as far as I know they are) to the Circuit accounts, then the next assembly would show a positive balance after all expenses are made and if this continued without abate, that amount would become gargantuous.

    As it was, it looked to me more like "projected deficits" based on "projected expenses" and when it all evened out everything got accounted for.

    I kept accounts, but not at the Circuit level and I know at our local congregation the audit was done by different brothers (I did them too at times) and all monies were accounted for in print.

    Just because this doesn't get reported to the IRS doesn't mean it's not accounted for. It just means it's not taxed in the same manner as a normal for-profit. Because the WTBS is "for-prophet", they don't account to the IRS.

    Am I missing anything?

  • designs


    You're on the right track, the thing the Society consistantly does is create a deficit with each Circuit by insisting that more money be sent to the Society than exists on the Books. Remember how at every Circuit Assembly when the accounts are read (you are never told what each expense is like Insurance, Utility Costs just a lump sum) you are told a Deficit exists and that was only created by the excess amount sent to Brooklyn.

  • EntirelyPossible

    As it was, it looked to me more like "projected deficits" based on "projected expenses" and when it all evened out everything got accounted for.

    Here's how it works. The deficits aren't deficits based on actual bills. The deficit is based on a per publisher rate predetermined before the convention ever starts. Because the deficit exists BEFORE the convention starts and is predetermined, there is NO matching the monies received with expenses incurred. Imagine it this way, you asked me how much the trip to NY to see the Big 4 would cost and I said "About $1200 for the flight, tickets, room and food". Well, what my buddy doesn't know is that because I am frequent flier and hotel stayer I got our flights and room for next to nothing but I based the rate on what it would cost in the real world. Since I never matched the monies he gave me with what I spent, I come out way ahead, scamming my friend.

    The WT does the same thing. They NEVER say "here are what the actual expenses incurred and what you donated." They give the calculated expense cost up front and give the deficit before they are done counting the 3 bags of cash in the back room with two grand in it.

    AND they do this for assembly halls that they own that we built AND donated the money for. We already paid for it once, built it, and now, when we (well, not ME anymore) want to use it, they charge us rent using the same pre-calculated method where ACTUAL expenses are completely divorced from ACTUAL income.

    If you don't believe me, ask someone in accounting to see a balance sheet with actual expenses and actual income for the assembly about two weeks after the assembly is over. By then the bills should all be in and the income accounted for.

    Hint, you will never see it. I am sure they have it internally, but YOU will never see it because then you would know how they run a deficit before they ever even book the facility.

  • exwhyzee

    I'm sure the WT has their behinds covered as far as tax and accounting laws. I think the scam part of it is "in house" when they "indicate" to the flock, who unquestioningly trusts them, that they'll need to dig even deeper into their pockets because the money needed to cover the assembly expenses hasn't been met. It would be a different story if they said up front that the assembly costs are X but we need XX to send to the society. That would be honest but they'd bring less in because the urgency wouldn't be there. Instead, they present it as an overall deficit which causes alarm and plays on the emotions of fear and sense of loyalty. Later , they make it look like Jehovah's spirit is at work when they have a surplus to send to the society. Everyone applauds and goes home feeling warm and fuzzy.

    Can you imagine going to the accounts department during the assembly intermission and asking to review the books? Especially a sister, it would be unheard of. It's our own fault as much as it is theirs, for not asking questions...just blindly trusting....but that's what cult members do best.

  • gubberningbody

    Ok, so am I hearing this correctly?

    1. The "expenses" for each assembly is computed in advance on a per-pub basis.

    2. The announcement of "deficits"s computed as :

    Let X be the number of publishers estimated to be in attendance.

    Let Y be the figure computed for costs-incurred-per-publisher

    Let Z be the monies which have been counted thus far.

    So that X * Y = "deficit"

    And the announcement of deficts = (X*Y) - Z

    3. The money IS deposited in the Circuit account at the bank and then IMMEDIATELY forwarded unaccounted for as a donation, but instead is sent on to the Society as "Assembly Expenses"?

    I don't get it.

    I knew we'd make "donations", but that was announced. I supposed the rest when to the Circuit account.

    I'd really like to know if money that makes it to Brooklyn isn't accounted for as either a "Donation", or as "on deposit with the WTBS to use, but which we could recall at any time".

    Those are the only two categories that I knew that the Society to get funds.

    Am I wrong?

  • EntirelyPossible

    The money is used to pay any actual expenses and then any left over is sent to the WT HQ, the circuit or district doesn't keep it to defray next years costs or for cicuit needs. If they need it back, they have to ask permission from the WT.

    In fact, the congregations are now doing this. They have operating expenses (which are itemized but the average R&F publisher cannot see). Any left over monies at the end of each month is transferred to the WT, if the congregation needs any of it back, they have to ask permission.

    Which part of the scam are you not getting?

  • gubberningbody


    I'm not getting the part where you say :

    "Any left over monies at the end of each month is transferred to the WT, if the congregation needs any of it back, they have to ask permission."

    That never happened at any congregation I was part of for 25 years as an elder.

    What I think you may be confusing is that a congregation can "loan" to the Society certain funds which they can withdraw later if needed (and this happened in our hall when we had to remodel.) but these are still listed and announced every month.

    I'm not aware that "...any left over is sent to the WT HQ" has happened without accounting for it and only on the NEXT assembly when an announcement might be made about making a donation to the Society would any funds be sent.

    What I believe IS being done is a SLOW "scam". The real "scam" is that two or three assemblies down the road you do an accounting and find out "whoah!! we have extra funds...Let's donate our surplus on to mamma to offset the "deficiencies of others". (2 Cor 8:14)... and then you feel all warm inside.

    I think the SLOW, BUT accounted for "scam" is taking place, but not the unaccounted kind.

    If I'm not right, I'd sure love to see the evidence because this whore needs to drop.

  • Mad Sweeney
    Mad Sweeney

    I don't get how this is NOT a scam on the rank and file. The publishers who donate are under the impression that they are donating to cover ACTUAL expenses. But the actual expenses might be as little as a couple thousand dollars for the entire weekend even though the announced budget claims more than ten grand.

    The extra goes to the Borg as a donation to the worldwide work or as a deposit into their money-holding account that "holds" surplus funds from the congregations and circuits around the country that EntirelyPossible mentioned. The Borg rolls these funds into RBC project loans which make them even more money.

    The money doesn't disappear. The Borg keeps internal accounts, sure. But the rank and file member never is told that they're paying for expenses that were never actually incurred. It isn't a siphoning scam; it's just a flat-out lie to the publishers scam.

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