by TimothyT 40 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
Not quite that closeted I think Miz . . . although I will stand corrected. I did hear a rumour that DJ was running a private ministry school for internet prosyletising . . .
That's a rumor I'm curious about, please feel free to PM me the details of that!!
Timothy T
Essan said
For JW's "other sheep" = Christians destined to live on earth in paradise. A different hope. Not to mention "another gospel", somehow revealed to the Watchtower president 2000 years later.
For Christians and anyone with any wits "other sheep" = Gentiles who became Christians soon after Jesus death and joined with his original Jewish disciples and who together became "one flock" who all have "one hope".
He's right. Simple!
Numbersandletters, you're avoiding the question. I asked you what DISBARS the the interpretation of the Gentiles from being the fulfillment of the "Other Sheep" in the first century and you can't think of anything which disbars it. Instead you switched to trying to talk about what (you think) proves the modern JW explanations, which is a totally different issue.
The are no objections you can raise to the 1st Century Gentile explanation for the "other sheep". That being so, and because it is the much simpler explanation and is in harmony with the hope for Christians outlined at length in the NT and has a 1st century fulfillment, it must be preferred over an explanation appearing 1900 years later, against which numerous objections CAN be raised because it DOESN'T neatly fulfill the requirement of them really becoming "one flock" in any way shape or form.
They are seen and described as two distinct groups by JW's not one - so they are not "one flock".
They do not have the same relationship with the shepherd now, according the the Society (mediator only for anointed), so they don't have "one shepherd".
At the point when you argue they will really become "one flock" one group is not even on earth or in the same form of being as the other group.
Etc.
There are so many holes in your notion it's truly laughable. Even the Society knew this - just as all other Christians have for centuries - for the first half of it's history, I believe. Until the drunkard Rutherford decided to overturn 2000 years of simple Christian understanding for a self serving, convoluted fantasy.
I agree with you Essan!
Thinking loigcaly and contextualy... it appears to me that Jesus was speaking simply about people who handnt yet heard the message.
I dont understand all of that stuf numberandletters was writing. It seems far too complex.
I believe Jesus was making a simple point as he often did.
Timmy xxx
And how would they "listen to Jesus Christ's voice"?
*** (John 17:20-21)
20 ""I make request, not concerning these only (Little Flock), but also concerning those (Other Sheep) putting faith in me..."
"...THROUGH THEIR WORD;..."
21 "...in order that they may all be one... in order that the world may believe that you sent me forth.""
I noticed that you left something out in verse 21. Something I personally think is telling, but you might not see it as such:
"... that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me."
ONE HOPE. NOT TWO.
As for heavenly hope vs earthly hope, the holy city comes down out of heaven, and the lamb and God are its light, and the apostles are the foundations of the walls.
Revelations 21
I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them."
Sounds like a spiritual city to me, made up of the people who are filled with the light of God and Christ.
Peace,
Tammy
The theme (People of diverse origins brought together into one flock, one shepherd) introduced in 10:16 echoes in the next chapters of the Johannine account:
11:51: He did not say this on his own, but being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus was about to die for the nation, and not for the nation only, but to gather into one the dispersed children of God.
12:20: Now among those who went up to worship at the festival were some Greeks. They came to Philip, who was from Bethsaida in Galilee, and said to him, "Sir, we wish to see Jesus." Philip went and told Andrew; then Andrew and Philip went and told Jesus. Jesus answered them, "The hour has come for the Son of Man to be glorified. (...) And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself. He said this to indicate the kind of death he was to die. "
Not at first, at first the bible plainly describes a difference.
They WILL BECOME ONE... The Little Flock has the mission spelled out for them, BRING the other sheep in.
(John 10:16) . . .they will become one flock. . .
And they have.
ONE FLOCK, Jehovah's Christian Witnesses.Question: Aren't the 'other sheep' bringing in the um... other sheep? Reworded: If its the mission of the little flock to bring in the other sheep, then once the other sheep are brought in and start doing that mission themselves, shouldn't that make them the little flock too? So then would they not have the same hope? Peace, Tammy
Yeah, TD and Paul expands on these ideas too clearly showing this is the fulfillment of Jesus comments regarding "other sheep" becoming "one flock" with the "little flock":
" For we were all baptized by one Spirit so as to form one body—whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink."
"for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus."
"Here there is no Gentile or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all."
Gentiles joining Jews and becoming one in Christ with them is a theme constantly discussed in the NT. Christians without Christ as their mediator who have an entirely different hope and who are identified as an entirely different group turning up 1900 years later, is not. So, I wonder which is the more likely fulfillment of Jesus words regarding the "Other sheep" who become 'One flock" with his first century Jewish disciples?
Well that is interesting indeed lettersandnumbers . . . especially the link to jewish mysticism. It's interesting that that should find it's way into a "Christian" doctrine don't you think?
and the pnt part . . . what's with that?
Gentiles joining Jews and becoming one in Christ with them is a theme constantly discussed in the NT. Christians without Christ as their mediator who have an entirely different hope and who are identified as an entirely different group turning up 1900 years later, is not. So, I wonder which is the more likely fulfillment of Jesus words regarding the "Other sheep" who become 'One flock" with his first century Jewish disciples?
This bears repeating, in case you missed it.
Peace,
Tammy
