Lies about Suicides in Congregations (page 3)

talesin

Alfred

No.

You may still be charged unless there are extenuating circumstances in which you HAD to use a gun. (Note that most Canadians do not own handguns.)

t

corpusdei

Aussie Oz>> Took a look at that 6/15/02 WT article. One of the things that jumped out at me was this quote:

The minister may also want to consider the purpose of a funeral service. Unlike people who believe in the immortality of the soul, Jehovah’s Witnesses do not perform funerals with the erroneous idea of sending the deceased off to another world.

I wasn't checking under the seats, but the last funeral I attended didn't have canopic jars and the buriel of servents to send to the afterlife with the deceased. In fact, I'm not sure I've ever seen a funeral where the idea is that we're sending the deceased to another world (although the idea of some sort of spiritual, inter-plane soul catapault is something that I now have to place in my will as a requirement for my own funeral)

Band on the Run

Isn't it true of all of us that only God knows what is in our hearts? Even the Watchtower does not sell authenticated resurrection certificates. If one believes in the Trinity, God as human plays well here. Jesus certainly endured extreme agony. Perhaps he wanted to end his suffering on the cross. We can't know.

There has to be more to it than service reports of hours spent knocking and doors knocked. Repentance is another factor. We can only know so little.

It reminds me a bit of politicians like Craig, Edwards and Weiner. I thought the Edwards had a special marriage. It was special all right in a very negative sense. Most of us believed they doted on each other and that Elizabeth Edwards was a saint.

I never felt good enough in the Witnesses. We were production units. I suffered utterly agonisiing pain for many years with no relief. All I could think about was suicide as self-deliverance but I was afraid. I wanted to be well. Staying in my apartment curled up in a fetal position was making the situatin even worse. So I volunteered in this Anglican Cathedral I attended. Time commitments kept me from finding out more about the place or developing friendships. The community embraced me. A very famous Christian author (had no clue who she was and never heard of her books) spent many hours with me. I am only alive today b/c of their help. No one marked down hours wasted on me.

The lack of meaningful agape love in the Witnesses is the main reason I left. Ignorance and celebration of ignorance annoyed me but love was the essential. No one seemed genuinely happy at the KH. When I lived in the East Village, I attended Eastern Rite churches. Their faces are ecstastic during communion. Never saw ecstasy at a KH. The Witnesses have evolved on issues since I attended. Condemnation was their default position. I love the line about standing in the person's shoes and then making judgment.

No one in my extended family of Witnesses wanted a KH funeral. We wanted privacy. Wasn't there a time when you cannot use a KH? I thought so. Weddings in KH were strange.

Quendi

My best friend killed himself in November 1986. I have never fully recovered from his death. He shot himself in the head with a .44 Magnum. I suppose Tom simply wanted to make sure he had no chance of surviving the attempt.

We held his memorial service in a funeral home due to the WTS rule against a Kingdom Hall use. I thought that was heartless and cruel, but it was very important that at least Tom had a memorial service. The Witness who gave the talk was the man who had originally studied with him years earlier in New York. He flew out to Colorado at the request of Tom's widow. He delivered a warm and loving talk which gave much comfort to all of us who attended. He confronted the question of why Tom had done this by simply saying that our friend and brother was dealing with many emotional and mental stresses and simply could not cope with them anymore. There were quite a few non-Witnesses who came to the service. I think they were especially glad to hear that Tom was not roasting in hell but rather was at rest and that we could take comfort in Jehovah's promise of a resurrection.

Tom suffered from bi-polar disorder and there were other problems as well. I am certain that all of these played major roles in his decision to kill himself. I have never seen as much pain and grief as I did on the day of Tom's memorial service. So many of us loved him, and it was such a great tragedy that he had ceased to love himself. The elders in the congregation were completely unequipped to handle his situation. They offered little in the way of affection or sound advice. I'm not blaming Tom's death on them because that was a decision he made himself. But his suicide made me think long and hard about the entire elder arrangement and its legitimacy. These men, supposedly appointed by holy spirit, were incapable of helping him. Tom never trusted them, and when I asked him to talk to them about his problems he told me he would never do so because their past "help" had only consisted of criticizing his attitude and pointing out his mistakes.

Forgive me for rehashing a very personal experience, but Tom was the best friend I have ever had, and his loss opened a wound that has never fully healed. I had thought that "God's organization" would be the perfect refuge for those of us suffering from humanity's various maladies. I have since learned better and now have left it behind. But the hubris and arrogance that have attached themselves to the WTS are a natural development given its distorted self-image. More than ever I understand what another late friend told me. An organization cannot love anyone. So when problems arise and the duly appointed leaders have to rely on rulebooks and written directives from headquarters instead of their natural humanity, then it should come as no surprise that those who look to that kind of direction suffer disappointment.

Now I have known of elders who were good men and did their level best in treating the flock with tenderness. But over the years what I have observed is that if there has always been a need for elders in the congregations of Jehovah's Witnesses, the need for shepherds has been far greater. Many have met the WTS standard for elders and ministerial servants, but very, very few have been shepherds. I'm not surprised to see problems mount and unhappiness and misery spread among the rank and file. Considering the quality of the "leadership" from the Governing Body on down, it could hardly be otherwise.

Quendi

TD

As for my opinion . . . the labelling of suicide as "self murder" simply displays a shallow understanding.

Yes. "Self murder" is also a basic contradiction in terms since "Murder" is "The unlawful killing of one human being by another." That's the whole reason why we have a different word when the killing is self inflicted. It's not the same thing.

undercover

Unlike people who believe in the immortality of the soul, Jehovah’s Witnesses do not perform funerals with the erroneous idea of sending the deceased off to another world.

Unless it's the funeral of an annointed one, that is...

Quendi - A JW friend of mine committed suicide. The stories sound similar. It made me reflect on not just the elder body but the entire organization and how it treats people in general. Thanks for sharing. I can relate.

talesin

Quendi - thanks for sharing. It means a lot, and I hope the sharing was a healing for you as well.

t

Band on the Run

If it someone were diagnosed with bipolar, would the Witnesses change their stance and allow a KH funeral? My illness and seeing other very ill people led me to believe strongly in individual and autonomy and rational suicide. We hold life to be so precious does anyone just casually off themselves on a whim. What about an accidental overdose.

The times have certainly changed regarding suicide. When I was young, my mom's friend attempted it. She had to be hosptialized in a medical unit. The police guarded her as a criminal and there was actually an indictment. Alcoholism has undergone a similar process. When young, I thought evil people drank to excess just to be bad. Now I view it as mostly genetic.

I've been out so long. Can someone give me a briefing on how the Witnesses view bipolar and schizoprhenia, particularly hallucinations and delusions? I'd appreciate it. My aunt had a young friend who suffered debilitating, long=term depression yet pioneered. I was shocked to see that they treated her as ill, in need of meds, compared to an evil bum. I've been very depressed with pain and family troubles. The people who come up and say that if I believed in Jesus, I would have a joyous attitude and praise the Lord for my afflictions are in danger of a violent reaction from me. Yet early Christians saw martyrydom as a cause for celebration.

Chariklo

I know the RCs believe suicides don't go to heaven.

That's not actually true. I've attended a Requiem Mass for a young man who killed himself and it was a full Mass and funeral. The priest talked very kindly about how disturbed and depressed he'd been.

Catholics and the Catholic church are very much less judgemental than JW's. However grave the sin, the person's immediate circumstances and frame of mind, the pressures he or she was under, all of that, would be taken into consideration.

And ultimately, the Catholic church says, only God knows and only God can judge. Whereas with the Watchtower the GB knows best.

You pays your money and you takes your choice. I know which I prefer.

LongHairGal

EXMS:

In my opinion, it would be extremely poor taste to say at a public funeral talk that the deceased committed suicide. Very poor taste indeed. Regardless of whether the deceased was an athiest, a JW or any other denomination.

However, if people want to speak privately about it that is another matter.

TALESIN:

Regarding your story about the person with the samurai sword: was this person in business with another JW??

QUENDI:

Thanks for posting that sad experience about your friend. You raise very valid points about the "qualifications" of the elders and also about how unloving the religion is. Indeed, how can an "organization" ever love anybody? It is no better than a machine.

Lies about Suicides in Congregations

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