Was the 1812 declaration of war on the British empire wrong (page 2)

EntirelyPossible

Next up on Irrelevant Question Hour - 1066 And the Battle of Hastings, subtitled "Where's my reparations?"

Talesin, sorry I minored in history and have been an avid student for most of my sixty years, my credentials are nearly as good as your friends. Saying that the US only invaded Canada and Vietnam prior to Iraq is patently wrong, and took about one minute on google to find the evidence. I'd be happy to debate the subject with him. PM me if you want.

talesin

I think it was an error in my phraseology - I will have to check with Dev, but what I meant to say was

declaration of war on a sovereign country

eg.... cuba was close, but no declaration of war ....

many thanks for taking the first step Jeff ,,, sorry accepted and it's done and over with heat of the moment and all, been there myself a few times hehehe

I had planned (and still do) to post a topic about my friend w/ youtube video, and you will 'get it'

:D and would love to discuss w/you, soon, but hospital tomorrow will pm soon

talesin

Star tiger

Wasn't it in Britain that the movement for the abolition of slavery got its start (at least in the western world), long before this side of the pond? I think that is a proud part of Britain's history that is mostly unheard of in North America.

It's my understanding that, though British ships/captains were in the slave trade, many British people (especially women) were working in the abolition movement. Just learned about that in the last couple of years. I watched a really interesting movie about it, and was surprised that we didn't cover that in school.

Once the Brits and French started fighting over here, our lessons crossed the pond as well, so I didn't learn a lot about Victorian and post-Victorian times. Kind of a shame in a way, but then, I had lousy history teachers, so they made it quite boring.

Also, the Elizabethan Era was one of great prosperity and change.

Interesting that Britain had its most prosperous, and I believe stable, times, during the reigns of Queens Elizabeth I, and Victoria.

what say you?

tal

* of the opinion that there are no irrelevant questions/topics, only irrelevant answers/replies *

J. Hofer

we took a tremendous hit from the Nazis, but through the commonwealth nations and especially America we prevailed

actually germany was defeated by the russians. the russian operations where the biggest german mistakes in WWII. the war was lost there.

of course hollywood only shows the normandy invasion over and over again. i don't know if you can call ohama beach an allied victory...

JeffT

Talesin

Yeah we need to continue this discusion when we have some time, so we can clarify what we're talking about. For example, there is even an argument about what is meant by declaring war. Officially and formally, the US has "declared war" five times: 1812, the Mexican American War, The Spanish American War, WWI and WWII. However, a number of times Congress has authorized the use of force - whatever that means, Iraq and Vietnam being good examples.

Back to the subject at hand.

http://orbat.com/site/history/historical/usa/usn1812.html

"The US Navy at this time had just 17 seaworthy ships – and 4 unseaworthy – with 447 guns and 5,000 men. The Royal Navy had 1048 ships, 27,800 guns, and 151,500 men."

Like I said, we're lucky we didn't get our heads handed to us.

Band on the Run

I am not a 1812 buff. From my reading about the Federalist period, global politics shaped American policy much more than was reported in school. When Geo. Washington was president, England and France went to yet another war. Many patriots, including Jefferson who was a cabinet member, believed we should support France. Washington, Hamilton and others viewed this as foolish. Everyone knew that wihtout France, the US would not exist. People were very pro-French.

It wasn't only Britain and France because each side had allies. Washington decided to impose neutrality, barring Americans from aiding France. Jefferson was livid. There is the great Pacificus/Helviditus debate published in the newspapers between Hamilton, supporting Washington, and I believe Madison as Washington's surrogate. HIstorians believe Washington took the right course. We barely had a military. The bloody French revolution was also a factor. King Louis XVI actively supported the US. Washington and others were aboslutely repulsed at his execution. Many thought the right to defend France died with Louis.

So there was a pre-existing recent tension with Britain. There are 1812 re-enactors in some locations.

I quit!

Do you ever wonder what the US would be like today if it hadn't fought a revolutionary war against the British? Would it be like Canada, Australia or New Zealand? Not really that bad of places to live. I guess it all depends on your perspective.

When I went to high school what was being taught as US history was far different than what I was taught in grade school. By that time we weren't always the guys in the white hats being attacked by brutal savages. Teachers openly questioned the war in Viet Nam. I had one high school teacher who suggested that the "shot heard around the world" probably came about because the colonist were harassing what were young inexperienced British troops that open fired because they feared for their lives.

JeffT

Do you ever wonder what the US would be like today if it hadn't fought a revolutionary war against the British? Would it be like Canada, Australia or New Zealand?

To be perfectly honest, I don't know that much about the history of Canada, Australia and New Zealand. But it strikes me that the other side of that question is, would those three be what they are now if the colonies hadn't taught the crown to treat its subjects better?

I had one high school teacher who suggested that the "shot heard around the world" probably came about because the colonist were harassing what were young inexperienced British troops that open fired because they feared for their lives

If anything, it was the other way around. The British (incidently everyone would have called them "Royals" as both sides were still "British") troops were regulars, and would have training in drill and professional officers. The militia were largely untrained guys that had taken up arms. Many of them, including most of the officers, were members of an extended and intermarried family.

Both sides say the other side shot first.

Star tiger

Talesin,

Yes the anti slavery movement begin in Great Britain with William Wilburforce.

Star Tiger

Was the 1812 declaration of war on the British empire wrong

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