Counselled on chatting to a study!

by Penn9 36 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • stillstuckcruz

    HI! Welcome to the forum. I'm 20. Still stuck in. Raised a witness. A simlar story to yours. You may have seen it whilst lurking. Anyways...well if you put the word "stumbling" into picture form, you can just imagine someone just waltzing along, no problems, and then something in the road just trips them up causing the to almost fall over. So somehow, by talking to this study, you may have caused someone's spirituality to be thrown out of wack. Hard to imagine, I know.

    But thinking about it STRICTLY from the JW point of view: It's understandable why talking to a non-baptized person is highly looked down upon, especially since you are baptized yourself. One thing my parents always told me(as well as the YPA book) is the when you date, that means you are ready to get married. And when someone at the KH talks to a member of the opposite sex rather frequently, it often seen as dating. Think about it....your a 25 yr old, single man, talking to the same good-looking woman often. Not much to decipher there. Even if your conversations aren't romantic, people tend to jump to conclusions. Not just JW's...that's just how people are.

    Your a baptized guy. She's not. If by chance, you DID get married, how would it work out? (Mind you, this is only from what others in the congreagation may be thinking.) Since your baptized, you would have one set of goals, and she would have another. You said it yourself, your not sure what her baptismal goals are. Baptized and un-batized mates hardly ever work out. One usually drags down the other. And the JW's know that. Which is probably why someone took notice and spoke up. The JW's are very nice people. Many are only looking out for what they feel are your best interests(even if you don't want them to). I'm in a different situation but I DO know the feeling. :)

    NO she isn't in there to lure me away. Poor girl is actually really into this stuff. She has morals and her exact words were "I'm so glad to have found a religion where everyone else has them, too."

    Note that finding a religion with morals is different that a belief system. She may love the morals and all, but what will happen when she REALLY finds out everythings else involved with being a baptized member of the JW. Having to believe EVERY teaching to the letter. No straying whatsoever or suffer the harsh consequences. Being judged if near every waking hour and free moment isn't being spent in FS. If you wish to find to her and see just how much she know about the depth of it all.

    whats the worst that can happen to me if I brush off the ridiculous counselling and go on talking to this girl?

    One of the things i've been doing recently with my problem in order to avoid added priveleges and responsibilities but still remaing in and avoid watchful eyes is this: Follow some cousel and not others. Not this is just my advice based on what I can see here. I'm not sure how the rest of your JW life is. How are your FS hours? How's your association? What "assignments" do you have? But regardless. you must make a decision based on what you really want. If you want out of the religion ASAP and have a means to do so, but still can't because of friends and family, just stay under the radar. Don't make it too obvious at the meetings if your trying to avoid heartache from "friends" and family. BUT, if your TRYING to make a bad impression without being too obvious, just continue to talk to her at the meetings.The worst that can happen? The elders talk to you again using words such as "disobedient", "stubborn", "unwise", etc. You may have half the congregation "counselling " you. idk. It's not a disfellowshippable(is that even a word?) offense or a sin unless you have sex with her or something. So keep that in mind

    Best wishes to you. Hope everything works out for the best! I know how hard it is... :)


  • sinis

    JW's are VERY nice people? WTF???? Drink any Kool-aid lately...

    Penn, just go for it. When they jump you again ask them to present the accuser so that you may scripturally talk with them - quote Matthew 18:15. Sounds like an excuse for someone who is jealous. I would blow off the "counsel"...

  • keyser soze
    keyser soze

    Welcome to the forum, penn!

    There is no such thing as "stumbling". We had a CO who said as much during one of his talks. It's simply a guilt word used when someone doesn't think you should be doing something, but has no scriptural support for their position. They can't explain to you why it's wrong, so they pull the "stumbling" card.

  • Mad Sweeney
    Mad Sweeney

    You need out of the Borg, bro.

    And you need the hottie to go with you.

  • OnTheWayOut

    If the JW "stumbling" teaching had any real merit, then you would be stumbling this girl by aiding her to baptism. Even if it's a silent standing back and giving her the eye, hoping that you can date her at some point after her baptism, you would be stumbling her.

    I say that because Watchtower is a false prophet, never having gotten anything right. They destroy/hurt lives. So if "stumbling" is actually what is done, why would you want to wish that upon a girl? Why would you want to continue looking at her with hope in your eyes if that might contribute to her becoming a JW?

    It's cruel, but the best thing you can do is allow that cold interuption to any possible relationship to awaken her to what a ridiculous controlling religion, JW's are in.

    As for you, you said "First good looking girl my age in the congregation."

    There are plenty of good-looking girls your age somewhere else. Hold on while you figure out your own path in life and see if you cannot find a girl who doesn't believe that JW's have "the truth." If you don't encourage (silently or otherwise) a relationship with a potential JW, you are not responsible for what happens to that girl. If your own circumstances don't allow you to warn her, then work on yourself and stay away from a JW or a potential JW. You will find the right girl somewhere else and then save yourself (and this study) of all kinds of turmoil.

    I love a good romantic story. If you are prepared to rescue this girl from the Watchtower, then fine. But don't get into some unrealistic expectation that you can do this by going deeper into JW life with her to lead her out in the long run later. Either rescue her now or let her be responsible for herself and get yourself a good "worldly" girl. You know I am right.

  • sinis

    Dude as young as you are, I would find a job in another city or state and blaze your own trail. Maybe go to school also. Hell the sky is the limit for you. Relocate, live your life, and enjoy...

    Oh, and marriage at 20? Ain't happen in the next life... be Johnny Apple seed, sow your oats, and when you find the right girl wherein sex does not cloud your judgment settle down, if you so desire...

  • scooterspank

    Tell the elders that you have been stumbled by the stumbling because you have broken no scriptural law by talking to the young lady and there is nothing in the literature that says two people can't speak at the Kingdom Hall in front of a bunch of other people. Should not everyone be especially kind to this young lady so she feels welcome? Express much dismay over the whole situation.

    I pity you man. What someone else said on this thread is so true. It's hard to find someone in your age group that is still single. If they are single there is usually a pretty good reason.

    I hope you continue to come to this website. I have been out for around 20 yrs., not d/a or d/f, just faded, but there were times when my family tried to "shun me" into coming back. It didn't work and I have lived a fun filled, very happy life and am now married to the man of my dreams. My family loves me to death and they don't treat me badly any more. Good luck on your journey!!!

  • Penn9

    This was all awesome advice to wake up to, thank you. I knew this was the place to get the confirmation that I'm doing the wrong thing! hahaha. Don't worry, I suspected that already, since it has made me sick to my stomach ever since I researched the Watchtower OUTSIDE the Watchtower that I'm STUCK in this joke of an organization because it's too risky to get out - and I look upon studies with pity. I have visions of all of us in a cement mixer, and above us, some well dressed kind devout JW is leading another soul to the slaughter. It's that intense.

    Unfortunately I am harboring some sort of fantasy to get married to this girl and live happily ever after. When I strayed, I did date worldly girls and while it could have just been the fact I was brought up with the judgmental JW attitude that everyone outside the KH is a goat, when they didn't work out for whatever reason that thinking grew stronger. Of course JW's would REVEL in this because it meant they were right and the protection rubbish is justified. My experiences in the world led me BACK to the KH. So learning the truth about "the truth" was SOUL CRUSHING. Basically it was: Hell, it's no more safer in here than it is out there. Jehovah's Witnesses is a religion no more false than the religions they condemn. I think anyone who believed we were THE TRUTH and devoted their lives to this, would understand where I'm coming from here. I'm talking 2 weeks of sleepless nights, and not attending meetings, only to put on the suit again and I'm back in there like a sucker.

    Fortunately since learning the truth I can now have a good laugh every time I'm in the KH. It's amazing what you notice is wrong with the org once you've loosened the shackles. That's where I am at... I know it's crap, but I go a long and use whatever I can to my advantage. While its not perfect, I don't believe it's the worst thing in the world. I don't believe any religion is right, and they're all based on doctrines littered with truth and lie, but whatever works for people. No disrespect to anyone here who has had terrible experiences, but I just haven't had that bad luck. I've read the horror stories about congregations around the world and I'm stunned. I'm not going to defend mine 100%, but it's far from terrible. Basically, if I was subjected to that misery, I'd leave willingly.

    " I think the elders just need to tell the person to grow up."

    I'm not surprised they didn't do this, simply because it's insanity what passes as "acceptable reason to counsel someone." I feel like the doctrine has only gotten more and more restrictive over the years. Hate to think what the future holds. OH! Never mind. False religion will fall on it's ass. I can only laugh now when an ignorant JW claims "We'll be the last one's standing!" What a glorious time that'll be. But not for the reason they're thinking.

    "Sucks to be a mid-20s+ single brother in the org. Decent eligible females in that age group are few and far between."

    True words, brother. What I've found is the sisters who once made an effort to quickly snag a mate, end up letting themselves go once they're married, and start looking like the sisters who never tried. Dunno if anyone else has noticed but these sisters always talk about singleness being a privilege because it leaves them more time to serve in the ministry... *GAG*

    ""one of the biggest mistakes of my life was letting these idiot men come between me and her. do what you feel is right. screw this stupid religion and their plethora of rules. the worst thing they can do to you is kick you out (DF) but then that is a blessing in disguise. the only power they have over you is what you give them."

    I really should (and could, and may consider it seriously) take this brilliant advice and run like hell. Sigh.

    "And things must have gotten good for her again, because she went back to shunning me."
    Sorry, that sucks. But I guarantee you'll be the first person she calls if she ever fades. The DF arrangement is one of the biggest gripes I have with the religion, even moreso than the lies of the WTS. Because no one sinned against the entire congregation, and the Lord encouraged forgiveness. Not "We'll forgive you and treat you like a human being with feelings once you repent and pledge to serve the WTS again." But let's not get into that. I could almost forget this is a sickening cult if it wasn't for that extremely cult-like attitude.

    "My advice would be to try to sort of date her alone in public places. If she's not so deep in the study she should accept it. "

    Pretty sure she IS deep in the study. According to her study conductor, she plans on becoming an unbaptized publisher. The fact she doesn't talk to me, or even look in my direction anymore tells me she's been told she's doing something wrong and she's eager to stay in the good books. It's sad enough that she's so early encountered the pathetic rules of the religion, and probably feels bad for "stumbling" someone. But her study conductor also says she questions a lot and "really makes me do my homework." YES! THIS is very promising. I think we have an independent thinker here.

    Sometimes I wonder if it was the study conductor who squealed. Mostly because she said to me "She doesn't need any distractions at this point." Hmmm.

    "stumbling" is a catch-all term invoked by JWs who don't like something you're doing, but can't come up with any reason it's actually wrong."
    YES. That's what makes it infuriating bulls***. It's a perfectly reasonable, convenient excuse. That's what makes it so scary.

    "If either of you do not fully understand that the Watchtower was not selected by Jesus, in 1919, to be God's sole channel of communication in our day...."

    Yep, we're screwed.

    "That's good enough for me, now just get me to the KH on time!"

    HAHAHAHAHAHA AWESOME. And so true. No wonder the rest of the world laughs at us. I'm surprised the org didn't re-write "Going to the chapel and we're gonna get married." since they're so against churches and never miss an opportunity to say so.

    "I almost let The Org. come between me and my 'worldly' partner. I'm glad I didn't! We've been happily married two years now."

    Congratulations, definitely nice to hear a success story :) You're lucky you could do that, not having anything to leave but the borg. Unfortunately everyone I've ever known and loved is in it.

    "Think about it....your a 25 yr old, single man, talking to the same good-looking woman often"
    25 yr old single, good looking man . I dunno... but i kinda think if i was the fat nerd in the congregation talking to the pretty lass, no one would care.

    "I'm not sure how the rest of your JW life is."
    Ball & chain. I do what I'm asked. Field service, answering up, etc. I'm actually that guy in the congregation who is everything to everyone, helps the elderly, plays with babies, shines his shoes, makes the apostates undercover gag, etc. So, there's a lot of possibilities when it comes to who went to the elders thinking they were protecting me, are jealous, or they're terrified this bad worldly girl is preying on such a good brother. Actually, typing this out, it now makes sense why it happened.

    ""JW's are VERY nice people? WTF???? Drink any Kool-aid lately..."

    As a whole, no. GOD'S CHOSEN PEOPLE my ass. Everytime they use the scripture to 'prove' it's them, I'm thinking "And every other damn religious cult is applying that same scripture to them, idiots." Just because we chose to be the fools pushing literature in 10000 degree heat in suits and ties doesn't make us special.

    BUT there are a lot of good JW's. I hate them because they're the bait for the lost, worldly people looking for loving people.

    "If the JW "stumbling" teaching had any real merit, then you would be stumbling this girl by aiding her to baptism."
    I KNOW! Trust me, I've battled the guilt over this haha. I keep thinking of the scripture regarding Babylon (which JWs will be in for a rude awakening when they learn they're not excluded from it) "GET OUT OF HER!" I also think of the scripture that taking in the true knowledge of you leads to everlasting life... doesn't leave someone like me who KNOWS the truth but chooses to listen to the lies, in a good position. This girl uses the internet enough , i'm hoping she finds out everything i have on her own.

    "Tell the elders that you have been stumbled by the stumbling "
    This isn't a lie, actually. I've been depressed over it. I can say "I'm stumbled by the fact one of my loving brothers and sisters would assume such false things about me. I feel like I can't trust anyone and I;m disappointed that they don't trust me."

    I'm not sure what the next move is. What do I do if I smile at her and she quickly looks away as if she just saw Satan himself? Because that's pretty much what she's doing!

    And thanks for the welcomes... I'd like to post regularly but i'm already paranoid that someone will know I come here. Sorry, i AM still a JW, hence scared shitless and stupid. ;)

  • pirata

    Read sd-7's story from the beginning.

    Date someone on the same path as you. You, on your way out, dating someone, on the way in, may not be such a good idea.

    PS. Welcome to the forum!

  • sinis

    "Tell the elders that you have been stumbled by the stumbling "
    This isn't a lie, actually. I've been depressed over it. I can say "I'm stumbled by the fact one of my loving brothers and sisters would assume such false things about me. I feel like I can't trust anyone and I;m disappointed that they don't trust me."

    I'm not sure what the next move is. What do I do if I smile at her and she quickly looks away as if she just saw Satan himself? Because that's pretty much what she's doing!

    And thanks for the welcomes... I'd like to post regularly but i'm already paranoid that someone will know I come here. Sorry, i AM still a JW, hence scared shitless and stupid. ;)

    Immediately inform the Congregation Overseer that you want to know WHAT was said to her as you believe your good name has been slandered over this innocent incident. If he refuses tell him your taking it to the CO/DO or Bethel.

    I would not let this go. Do you really want to sit idle and know people are talking shit behind your back? You do have the right to know what was said. If you feel like they are blowing smoke up your ass, tell them your going up the chain of command.

    I can tell you this, depending WHAT was said and by WHOM they may have very well soiled your name among the cong, and we all know how that gets out to the broader conventions... you may very well be known as the horny young man of the XXXX Cong. Take action now. If you were older they would not have pulled this shit, its because of your age. Be a man, and act accordingly or they will forever shit on you...

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