by sabastious 35 Replies latest jw friends
onemore - I think you are right
| I feel that the problem of suffering presents a bigger challenge to the nonbelievers than to the believer |
there is a whole lot for the unbeliever to take on - the unbeliever is especially conscious that the life he/she has now is all there is. This can be hard to deal with and can call on all one's resources.
onemore, i would recommend you read up on evolutionary game theory and evolutionary psychology and then get back; our sence of morals is a direct consequence of evolution and quite well explained.
on the other hand theists need to solve the problem of evil. 2000 years later and the problem persist.
The Euthyphro dialogue also remain unsolved.
notice none of these fundamental problem exist in the evolutionary model at all.
Why does god permit suffering?
A: Because you touch yourself at night. :D
Suffering is inherent in having a body. It’s not possible to feel physical pleasure without at times feeling pain. The difference between pain and pleasure is a fine line. We do our best to maximise our sensual pleasure and minimise our pain.
Birth and death are natural in this world. There is no magical or miraculous wand that can be waved by a god that will change reality. The proof of this is that it hasn’t happened.
If humans survive for another three billion years, which is unlikely, the aging sun will heat up before it dies and humans will be toast. The universe makes no promises and owes us nothing - it just is.
The wonder is that we are witnessing life on this stunningly beautiful planet, hanging in space. I wouldn’t have missed this moment for the world.
@strymeckirules
the test is - will a human do what's right in any given situation.
So wickedness exists to test humans. Does that mean that the little girl who's kidnapped, raped and murdered is being tested? Or what about the little boy who is starving and dying of disease? Is he being tested? It just doesn't make sense.
@onemore
Where does the notion that people deserve to live in security, safety, dignity and honor comes from? we feel and understand that the world should not be this way…that people should not die of starvation, of preventable diseases, nor be killed or enslaved by a more powerful nation… deep inside of us we feel that something is fundamentally wrong with Humanity…that it’s not suppose to be this way. But why?
It's the group dynamic of the social species. "As organisms evolved to coexist among one another in groups, these selfish instincts no longer served to an animal's advantage. Obviously, if every creature within a group only struggled for its own preservation without any regard for any other individual within its community, it would be impossible for such a group to survive." - The "God" Part of the Brain by Matthew Alper, chapter 18. So survival of our species depends on our concern for the safety and welfare of fellow humans.
Also, one of the clinchers for me about God and wickedness is the idea of Satan being cast out of heaven and down to earth. (I'm not sure how widely accepted that belief is, but that is what I was taught as a JW.) If there really is a loving God, would he really confine Satan to the vicinity of the earth? That would be like you wanting to clean your town of pedophiles by locking them up in your child's preschool with the children! Then you'd tell your child, "Just be good and trust that I will come to get you someday. I'm not going to tell you when, only I know that. Follow the example of your older brother, who is oh so good and righteous. He'll help you deal with anything those nasty pedophiles might try to do." Absolutely absurd!
I like to make a "model" of a problem in my head to better understand it. Here is a model of this problem for Tammy to look at and evaluate (in view of the above comment.)
We're not children, Terry. I think a model has to be equivalent to what we as adults are capable of doing/being/, as opposed to what a child/preschooler is capable of doing/being.
We are capable of compassion. We are capable of feeding the hungry and housing the poor. We are even capable of peace. But our personal desires, greed, apathy, selfishness... these things get in the way of our achieving these things. Not because we're not capable, but because we choose to live at times in a manner that shows little or no regard for others. The effect of each act of selfishness spirals, and that is what we teach and leave to our children. There is good too, and that also spirals... but the fact that there is good only proves to me that we ARE capable of such things.
God is not responsible for the mess that we have created for ourselves... just as a parent of adult children is not responsible if that adult child goes out and commits a crime (having been taught by that parent and by the law NOT to commit crime)
Tammy
" We are capable of compassion. We are capable of feeding the hungry and housing the poor. We are even capable of peace. But our personal desires, greed, apathy, selfishness... these things get in the way of our achieving these things. Not because we're not capable, but because we choose to live at times in a manner that shows little or no regard for others. The effect of each act of selfishness spirals, and that is what we teach and leave to our children. There is good too, and that also spirals... but the fact that there is good only proves to me that we ARE capable of such things. "
Do you think that education can help Tammy?
Do you think that education can help Tammy?
Absolutely!
I think education has already helped a lot. As well as different perspectives and pov's - which we can get now more than ever before, with the information readily available to most people.
Of course, it does depend on the educators, and what is being taught, doesn't it?
Just as one example, imagine if nationalism wasn't taught, but world unity/brotherhood was taught instead?
Tammy
I agree with what you just said completely, Tammy.
But I wonder, and have always wondered, even as a child:
Of course, it does depend on the educators, and what is being taught, doesn't it?
Why isn't God an educator?
