One thing the WT got right was the Trinity being false.

by miseryloveselders 96 Replies latest jw friends

  • Terry
    Terry

    We are creating the very problem we struggle to solve.

    None of us has seen Jesus.

    None of us has seen Jehovah.

    None of us has seen Holy spirit.

    We only have five ways of interacting with any actual reality: our five senses.

    Beyond that we start imagining, synthesizing, speculating and manipulating symbols.

    The words in the Bible are symbols of thought and NOT reality.

    Some people we never met put these writings together.

    We accept on trust everything they did.

    THAT IS THE BEGINNING OF OUR PROBLEM.

    We've bitten off a huge chunk of BELIEF in something with no connection to any possible reality.

    Then we struggle with our senses trying to define and understand it.

    YOU MAY AS WELL SPEND YOUR LIFE SEARCHING FOR BIGFOOT.

    When you accept as EVIDENCE the Bible you become one of those UFO crazies who make pilgrimages to Area 51.

    You are interviewing other crazies and debating with them over Elvis sightings.

    THERE IS NO REALITY to the Trinity and you will never understand it.

    The human mind can trick itself into wasting itself on its own imaginings.

    Why waste your precious time?

    It is truly one of the most pathetic aspects of religious belief.....that waste of one's precious life chasing imaginary rabbits

    down a hole too deep and too far.

  • designs
    designs

    Something went terribly wrong with this concept....

    Can you figure out what and why.

  • james_woods
    james_woods

    To a conventional Christian - Jesus was divine; that is, he was a manifestation of God on Earth. He is worthy of their worship. The holy spirit is a transfer of power - a manifestation of God's divine authority. The main issue is that Christ IS God.

    To an Arian Gnostic - Jesus was merely a demi-god; that is, he was a former Angel. He is NOT God.

    To an agnostic like myself - it is all a moot point; however, I cannot help feeling that the Arian view tends to minimize Christ. Like someone else said, PSac I believe, the Witnesses minimize their devotion to Christ and maximize their devotion to the Old Testament YHWH. Given the two, if I had to worship one or the other, I would pick Christ of the new testament over warlike jealous YHWH of the old.

    Note that the Witnesses did not even bother to name themselves as "Christian", but take pains to use the name Jehovah at every opportunity - so far as to mistranslate their bible to insert this name.

    It is questionable to me if they are, in this sense, even worthy of the name "Christian".

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento

    JW put it the best way possible and pretty much stated the core reason why the trinity doctrine came to be.

    One doesn't have to believe in the Trinity doctrine, it is not a "doctrine of salvation" and never has been.

    It is a doctrine of "nature" at best and just a confusing one at worse.

  • designs
    designs

    James-

    Exactly how is Jesus any nicer than Jehovah.

  • james_woods
    james_woods
    Exactly how is Jesus any nicer than Jehovah.

    Jehovah is on "record" in the mythos of the bible as being the killer of everybody on Earth.

    Jesus is on "record" in the mythos of the bible as being the savior of everybody on Earth.

    Of course, you have to believe both myths to pick between them.

  • jonathan dough
    jonathan dough
    1 Corinthians 11:3 (New International Version, ©2011)

    But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, [a] and the head of Christ is God.
    Headship as being higher in rank, how does this harmonize with a trinity, when all are said to be equal ?

    As mentioned above,

    Sixth, there is subordination of relation and order among the three Persons, but not in nature:

    Moreover, the subsistence and operations of the three Persons are marked by a certain order involving a certain subordination in relation, though not in nature. The Father as the fount of deity is First: He is said to originate. The Son, eternally begotten of the Father, is Second: he is said to reveal. The Spirit, eternally proceeding from the Father and the Son, is Third: He is said to execute.

    While this does not suggest priority in time or in dignity, since all three Persons are divine and eternal, it does suggest an order of precedence in operation and revelation. Thus we can say that creation is from the Father, through the Son, by the Holy Spirit. (New Bible Dictionary, 1299, 1300)

    We're dealing with equality in nature, not subordination in relation. Also, don't confuse immanent Trinity from Economic Trinity.

    Furthermore, the Christ is God-man, and man the creature is not considered to be YHWH in mainstream Christian thought. Therefore, the man of the God-man equation is obviously inferior and not equal. Reread the above post if you haven't already.

    http://144000.110mb.com/trinity/index.html

    With respect to 1 Corinthians 15:24, 28 which the Jehovah’s Witnesses rely heavily on to show that the heavenly Jesus can’t be God because in the everlasting future in heaven Jesus will remain subject to God, and therefore He can’t be God (Should You Believe, Chapter 7). But this refers to God the Son’s voluntary subordination in the Trinitarian sense, subjection not as creatures are, but “as a Son voluntarily subordinate to, though co-equal with, the Father” (Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary on 1 Corinthians 15:28). Just because you voluntarily take a job scrubbing floors doesn’t mean you are less human than your employer, even if you feel that way. Remember, one must always ask, “equal in what sense?”

    The one who subjected everything to him: the Father is the ultimate agent in the drama, and the final end of the process, to whom the Son and everything else is ordered (24, 28). That God may be all in all: his reign is a dynamic exercise of creative power, an outpouring of life and energy through the universe, with not further resistance. This is the supremely positive meaning of “subjection”: that God may be fully God. (NAB notes 15,27b-28)

    http://144000.110mb.com/trinity/index-4.html

  • jonathan dough
    jonathan dough
    Headship as being higher in rank, how does this harmonize with a trinity, when all are said to be equal ?

    The Jehovah's Witnesses argue that Jesus could not have been God’s equal because Christ had a God above him and therefore God is superior in every way and Christ inferior, stating:

    Not only is Almighty God, Jehovah, a personality separate from Jesus but he is at all times his superior. Jesus is always presented as separate and lesser, a humble servant of God. That is why the Bible plainly says that “the head of the Christ is God” in the same way that “the head of every man is the Christ.” (1 Corinthians 11:3) (Should You Believe, Chapter 7)

    “Is not the sender superior to the one sent?” (ibid., Chapter 7)

    First, as noted earlier, Trinitarians actually do believe that the created humanity of Jesus, who was not God, was a humble servant of God and inferior (see section 5).

    Secondly, the Jehovah's Witnesses neglected to quote all of the relevant portions of verse 3, leaving out the reference to husband and wife which helps put these verses into proper context: “…the head of every man is Christ, the head of a woman is her husband, and the head of Christ is God.” The Greek word for ‘head’ is kephale and in this passage it is used “metaphorically, of the authority or direction of God in relation to Christ, of Christ in relation to believing men, of the husband in relation to the wife, 1 Cor 11:3” (Strong and Vine’s, 138). It is not intended to mean that one is inherently superior by nature to another as the Jehovah’s Witnesses would have you believe.

    Paul is referring to authority possessed and exercised and an ordering of their relationship, but as the Jehovah's Witnesses interpret verse 3, a husband would be inherently superior as a person to his wife the inferior being, but we know that not to be true. In that culture, and in some contemporary matrimonial roles, the wife voluntarily assumes a particular subservient role. But just because a husband sends his wife down to the corner market for some milk, or the husband has the final decision with respect to, say, financial matters, that does not make his wife inferior to him as a person any more than the President of the United States is superior, as a human being, to any citizen of the United States of America. Your employer is not a superior individual, either, but only exercises authority over you.

    The divine person of Christ, even if sent by God the Father, and even if He voluntarily subjected Himself, did not in so doing become less equal to God with respect to His essential being, nature and essence. When the Word assumed a human nature he did not cease being God, but willingly assumed a different relationship; a different grade, order or manifestation as Tertullian theorized. His incarnation and obedience did not diminish the divine essence of His being or make Him less consubstantial. The divine Person of Jesus was still fully God, who chose a veiled glory.

    Christ possessed equality with God prior to His incarnation, and then for a time veiled that glory, being always God in all of the co-equal attributes, but in the incarnation never using His Godly powers to better Himself. He was fully God, fully man, God taking on the likeness of sinful flesh (Rom 8:3), not a man adding Godliness. (Strong and Vine’s, 42)

    http://144000.110mb.com/trinity/index.html#3

  • jonathan dough
    jonathan dough
    2) free will
    If the trinity are 3 persons in one god-head, fine, but what if one person exercises free will, lets say Jesus gave in to temptation of the Devil, and necomes apostate to the father, what will happen to the trinity ?

    You're confusing Jesus the creature, the man of the God-man equation of the hypostatic union, who Christians believe is not God, with economic Trinity, Father, Son and Holy sp[irit. Start here: http://144000.110mb.com/trinity/index.html#2

    3) death of Jesus
    How was the trinity affected by Jesus death ?

    God the son did not cease being God at Jesus the man's death. Christ was, and is, God-Man.

    It's all right here.

    http://144000.110mb.com/trinity/index.html#1

  • myelaine
    myelaine

    dear PSacramento...

    you said post #7945: "If the writers of the OT and the followers of the OT had gotten it right, there would have been no need for Christ."

    according to romans 1:18-19: For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is evident among them; for God hath shewed it unto them. + That was the true Light which gives light to every man who comes into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. (john 1:9-10)

    have you exchanged the truth of God for your lie? how does this serve you well?

    love michelle

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