Who REALLY IS the Faithful and Discreet Slave?

by TimothyT 60 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Mad Sweeney
    Mad Sweeney

    Timothy, I am glad to see you reading and studying more and more. Knowledge will enable you to make good personal decisions for your own benefit and the good of everyone around you.

    A lot of good reading advice has been given in this thread and just so it doesn't all get lost, here's a summary (and I may have over looked some, too):

    Crisis of Conscience - Raymond Franz

    In Search of Christian Freedom - Raymond Franz

    www.jwfacts.com

    Captives of a Concept - Don Cameron

    Age of Reason - Thomas Paine

    I would second what SweetBabyCheezits said. Tear it all down and rebuild your beliefs from scratch. If "the truth" is THE truth, it should become obvious during rigorous impartial examination. If it isn't, you will need to find what is true for yourself.

    Check your PM's Timothy.

  • Este
    Este

    Este: Good questions! I agree! The slave will be appointed when the master arrives! Im not sure if the JW's believe Jesus has arrived yet, or whether he has yet to arrive! If he has arrived (which i think logicaly they would believe) then he has made his choice, but if he arrives during Armageddon or whatever (which is the way i understood his second coming) then he will choose this slave THEN!!! This makes sense to me!


    Jesus has arrived and it did occur around the year 1914 as they teach. But this time period was not the end times the scripture specifically says but the end is not yet but the beginnings of distress (paraphrased).

    The Kingdom was born around the time the wild beast of revelations chapter 13 wages war against the holy ones. This is the time period when the slave is born, or becomes aware of his calling.

    The slave then fulfillls the scriptures referring to the slave. He is appointed when jesus imprisons satan and the demons for the thousand years. All takes place in the heavens first.

    Estephan


    Note that the language is clearly conditional:

    "Happy is that slave if his master on arriving finds him doing so"

    Jesus never stated the final outcome. Therefore the faithful and wise steward was a fictitious character in a parable with a very obvious meaning.

    JW's don't treat it as a parable, they treat it as a prophecy which ignores that conditionality. Further, in the parable, Jesus is the one who judges the slave and makes that determination. The JW leadership has usurped that role and declared themselves righteous, which is completely backwards.

    They can dress it up any way they want, but when you strip away the clever writing and state it plainly, the perception that they were the ones that Jesus found faithful at his alleged return in 1914 is an inference they've drawn based on their own imperfect perception of events. Since when does a slave decide for themselves whether they've been righteous or not?

    The faithful slave and the wicked slave are "the same person".......

    45 “Who really is the faithful and discreet slave whom his master appointed over his domestics, to give them their food at the proper time? 46 Happy is that slave if his master on arriving finds him doing so. 47 Truly I say to YOU , He will appoint him over all his belongings. 48 “But if ever that evil slave should say in his heart, ‘My master is delaying,’ 49 and should start to beat his fellow slaves and should eat and drink with the confirmed drunkards, 50 the master of that slave will come on a day that he does not expect and in an hour that he does not know, 51 and will punish him with the greatest severity and will assign him his part with the hypocrites. There is where [his] weeping and the gnashing of [his] teeth will be.

    The faithful slave has to endure whatever his master has puts forth before him, good and evil.

    weeping is heartfelt sorrow and gnashing of teeth is anger, the exact same thing Jesus Christ and the 12 apostles endure "in like manner"

    Estephan (the slave) out of the tribe of Levi, the offspring of Abraham

  • TD
    TD

    Note that the language is clearly conditional:

    "Happy is that slave if his master on arriving finds him doing so"

    Jesus never stated the final outcome. Therefore the faithful and wise steward was a fictitious character in a parable with a very obvious meaning.

    JW's don't treat it as a parable, they treat it as a prophecy which ignores that conditionality. Further, in the parable, Jesus is the one who judges the slave and makes that determination. The JW leadership has usurped that role and declared themselves righteous, which is completely backwards.

    They can dress it up any way they want, but when you strip away the clever writing and state it plainly, the perception that they were the ones that Jesus found faithful at his alleged return in 1914 is an inference they've drawn based on their own imperfect perception of events. Since when does a slave decide for themselves whether they've been righteous or not?

  • dgp
    dgp

    Who is the faithful and discreet slave?

    Some say Outlaw is. Others claim Spade is.

  • TD
    TD

    Wow...We have a prophet here who can quote and respond to you in a post prior to yours....

    Hyper literal translations are closest in structure to the original Greek, but their downfall is that the end result is sometimes grammatically awkward and/or incomplete English.

    People who, for whatever reason, want to claim some favored status with God will attempt to take advantage of this.

    One manifestation of this is the JW claim that there were two slaves; a faithful and a wicked one.

    Another manifestation, which you can see above is the claim that the slave is simultaneously faithful and wicked. Both views are transparent attempts to treat one out of a whole series of parables as a prophecy

    It's not apparent in the NWT that the conditionality in verse 46 carries over into verse 48, but it is very apparent in other translations:

    But suppose that servant is wicked...NIV & TNIV

    But if the servant is dishonest...NJB

    But if he is a bad servant...TEV

    But what if the servant is evil...NLT

    But if the servant is worthless...NAB

    But if he should be a bad servant...Phillips

    But if that servant is bad...NLV

    But if he is a bad servant...NEB

  • Este
    Este

    Wow...We have a prophet here who can quote and respond to you in a post prior to yours....


    I am limited on the amount of posts, hence edited prior posts......

    I am not a prophet, however I have prophecied and seen visions, as you would read from my many previous postings. (Acts 2:17)

    Is it wicked to engage in war? Yes (gnashing of teeth=anger)

    Is it saddening/disheartening to see people suffer? Yes (weeping-sadness)

    The slave endures all of the things brought against the holy ones as offspring of Abraham.

    Estephan

  • jgnat
    jgnat

    Here's an "outsider" Christian's view of the FDS.

    • First of all, it is a parable for all Christians to serve their brothers and sisters with humility.
    • Who ever heard of placing a Slave as the Lord of the congregation? Yet every witness I know speaks of the Slave with reverence.
    • The slave serves first, eats last. In the WTBTS, everyone serves, never eats, and the Slave rules. This is backwards!

    God speaks through a single organization? Only the Catholic church, the Jehovah's Witnesses, and fringe cults believe that. The Catholic church probably has the most direct claim, offering that the popes from Peter onwards were divinely appointed. Jehovah's Witnesses are merely modern century upstarts. Their claim? That their "interpretation" and application of bible precepts is more perfect than everyone else's. Such arrogance.

    (I had a taste of Catholic bigotry this past January, when one of my nephews got married. Lovely girl. They were married by a Methodist. The young man is not that religious, but she is the daughter of missionaries. One of the Aunts deplored that the Catholic church would not marry them because he is not baptized. The mother had offered that her children could decide for themselves as adults. I realised that this Aunt did not see it as a fully legitimate marriage because it was not overseen by The Church. uuugh.)

    If no-one has a perfect and legitimate claim on the "truth", what is a religious young man to do? Study things out for himself and either follow his own path or find an imperfect church to visit.

  • Larsinger58
    Larsinger58

    The actual answer is the fact that there is a Biblical Christian "temple" sect that is supposed to appear after "2300 evenings and monrings" that is 1150 years into the final 1260 years of the covenant that end in 1996. That means this special "temple" sect would appear in 1886 and function until 1196. That is:

    36 CE ends the 70th week of 70 weeks, beginning 455 BCE and ending 36 CE. This establishes the sequence of covenant weeks.

    70 weeks = 490 years

    4 x 490 = 1960

    1960 + 36 CE = 1996 AD

    Thus in 1996 AD the covenant Period ends for both Jews and Christians. That specifically includes the "temple" sect that appears in 1886.

    If you maintain the concept that a "slave" is in charge of a sect or cult or ministry, then we learn from the parable of the ten slaves sent out with silver money to do business, that Christ gathers in many places. In fact, he says specifically after removing his "little flock" that he has "other sheep not of this fold." So even though that temple sect, like the tribe of Levi, was chosen to perform special, high-level spiritual tasks, it is not the only "chosen' group. It is only one of many others.

    However, looking at other scriptures we find this "temple" organization would have an ego problem among its leaders. They would rise up in God's temple of public anointed ones and make itself a god. This is the "man of lawlessness" mentioned at 2 Thess 2:3,4. So the irony is, whichever organization is the true temple in its right condition after 2300 evenings and mornings is the same sect that becomes the evil slave organization and produces the man of lawlessness.

    So that's the dilemma of the WTS. It knows it is the chosen temple sect, the sect that would preach the "good news" and the sect that would be the target of Gog of Magog (German Nazis) alongside God's other "holy ones", the natural Jews. Case in point, when Matthew speaks of the "love of the greater number cooling off", it is speaking of the natural Jews and the growth of antisemitism leading up to the Holocaust, which was the first "great tribulation" (of Matthew, not Revelation. One tribulation occurs before and the other after the second coming). Of note, Jews and JWs were targets of the "disgusting thing that causes desolation" which is Nazism. If the Jews are the "greater number" then the "lesser number" is a reference to the Christian holy ones. There was a reason JWs were targets of the Nazis along with the Jews. They fulfill how the disgusting thing stands in the holy place, that is, attacks the holy ones, who are Jews and JWs.

    Here's a video you might find helpful that elaborates on this:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CnTy8_EhE0Y

    They also specifically full that the good news would be preached world wide first, and then the "end" will come. The end is not Armageddon. The end is the end of the gentile times which ended on November 30, 1947. That very year, then president N.H. Knorr did go on a literal around-the-globe speaking tour, thus fulfilling that when the good news was preached world wide, the end would then come. And it did.

    So there is no getting around JWs being the "temple" sect, but only one slave out of many who gather in God's approved elect. Even so, this temple of anointed ones would become corrupted apostasy and when Christ comes he has to separate out the sheep from the goats. These sheep separated out represent the "wise virgins" and the "little flock." To them he says, "I have other sheep, not of this fold." This slave organization, JWs, are thus many times referenced as the "evil slave" and the "sluggish slave" or the "man of lawlessness" or the "false prophet." All these refer to the WTS after they became apostate.

    The GB was "disfellowshipped" by Jehovah on November 20, 1992. They are now in spiritual darkness and headed to the lake of fire like the rest of Christendom.

    Of note, in 1886, the first Studies in the Scriptures appeared. This volume series became the doctrinal foundation of the Bible Students who later became known as JWs.

    So Who really is the FDS? It is Jesus Christ. JC appears 45 days after the GB is disfellowshipped, that is, identified. This fulfills 2 Thess 2:3 "Let no one seduce you in any manner, because it will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness gets revealed, the son of destruction."

    So the second coming does not come until after the man of lawlessness is revealed. He was revealed on November 10, 1992. 45 days later on December 25, 1992 is when the second coming took place. They were revealed by a direct leter to them that they were being cast out and that they fulfilled being the evil slave. This letter was sent by one of the anointed who called himself "The Watchman." Likely F. Franz and the WTS figured this person would become the messiah so assisted the UN in trying to prevent the 2nd coming on December 21, 1992 as preached by the "two witnesses", two of the 10 slaves who witness for Christ. They were successful, but the next day Jehovah killed Fred Franz on December 22, 1992. At this time the WTS had just joined the UN in early 1992. With Franz' death and Jehovah's help the 2nd coming took place uninterrupted on December 25, 1992. This fulfilled the 1290 days and the 1335 days in relation to the 70th week that starts in 1989 and ends in 1996. Per Bible prophecy, the messiah must arrive sometime after November 30, 1992 but before April 6 (Passover), 1993. So all was fulfilled on time. Turns out, it indeed was the messiah who wrote the letter to disfellowship the GB and reveal them as the "man of lawlessness."

    But in answer to your question, Who really is the FDS? The answer is, of course, the returned Jesus Christ himself. He is the one whom Jehovah places over all his domestics while the GB of the WTS is cast outside. They are not the FDS, they are that "evil slave" who beats up on his fellow members because they think the master is delaying in his return. Which fulfills the state of the WTS right now. They are waiting for the 2nd coming to happen and keep extending that "last generation" concept. So they are frustrated. But they have the wrong chronology. The correct chronology dates the fall of Jerusalem to 529 BCE and thus the 2nd coming in 1992 rather than 1914.

    So the true faithful and discreet slave turns out to be none other than Jesus Christ, returned in the flesh. The "evil slave" turns out to be the WTS, who served as the "temple in its right condition" (Daniel 8:14). The covenant with Jews and JWs ended in the Fall of 1996. Now the Covenant is with spiritual Israel who are now all but sealed into the kingdom, some 1,440,000. The 144K are only the natural Jews (Isa 6:13).

    You're most welcome!

  • TimothyT
    TimothyT

    Mad Sweeney: Thanks! I enjoy more and more deep study these days! Im currently reading the book of Matthew and im loving it! Im almost on to Matthew 24 and 25! Im going to spend days on it! Realy trying to understand it as best as i can! Thanks for summing up the main books and for sending me some info too! I now have the book by Franz and i look forward to reading it! Ill let you know what i think when i find the time to sit down and go through it!

    Este: I agree! Its a parable! Of course it has some meaning but i dont agree with the way it has been applied! The condition of course is VERY important: IF!!! How can a slave pronounce himself faithful and discreet! Of course, perhaps Jesus did appoint them in 1914... but im not so sure! It sounds quite pious to me... a simple way of gaining control! After all... anyone can say... IM THE FAITHFUL SLAVE... LISTEN TO ME!!! Surely some people say: "Wait a second!"But 99% of them just believe it! Thats a little fickle and gullible dont you think? Im glad i think about things, and im glad you all do too! :)

    Jgnat: Intertesting points! The slave is always last! In our studies at the meeting, i hear them revere the FADS SOOO much and it makes me cringe! One brother said from the platform... "we thank the faithful and discreet slave so much for their provisions" I looked at my dad and said... "and what about thanking Jehovah?" We agreed it was a little unfair! I can see why you think its arrogant! In many ways, i do too! Anyway, every day i feel more enlightened! Thanks for your thoughts!

    Larsinger58: Thanks for your post! Ill have to read that few times to get the sense of it! HAHA!!! The whole business with numbers and dates in the bible, im a bit iffy with! I have seen people in the past just pluck numbers out from anwhere and apply them how they want! Ohhh... there were 12 disciples times by 365 days take away 3.5 years times by the square route of 70 weeks shared by the four figurative horns on a cow to equal the date of Armageddon! If seen it before... most of it is just crap! The truth is... as it says in Matthew 24 and 25... keep on the watch... for you dont know the date or the hour! Perhaps the bible has true indications as to when Jesus will return... but i just focus on being a good Christian and hopefuly when Jesus does return and appoint a FADS, he will see me as a good person! :) Im sure he will do the same for you too! :) Despite my skepticism on such dates, i suppose its still interesting to look at! :)

  • wobble
    wobble

    If Jesus were ever to return, he would be amazed at how a simple parable was mis-used to hold 7 million gullible JW's in thrall to afew old men in Brooklyn.

    If he were to return, he would have no need of a "faithfull steward" or "servant" as all true Christians would be looking after his affairs as a natural part of their lives.

    Now, when the wise virgins turn up, followed by a good samaritan,and a woman who has found the coin, and a merchant with an effin great pearl, you guys had better watch out !

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