What is "the Kingdom"?

by Darth Eowyn 37 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345

    @Butterflyleia85:

    Dave Armstrong Catholic apologist says:

    "The Bible teaches that those who die and are saved are fully alive, that they are aware of earthly affairs, and that they love us; therefore it makes perfect sense to ask for their intercession.

    Protestants often ask Catholics a question that goes something like this: “Why would anyone seek the aid of a mere manager or underling, when he can go directly to the CEO himself?” The comparison is, of course to asking saints to pray for us when we can go “straight to God.” In this vein, they cite 1 Timothy 2:5 (“one mediator”). And the proper Catholic (and biblical) answer is, “Because we are informed in the Bible that the prayers of certain people are more effective than those of others”:

    James 5:16–18: “The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects. Elijah was a man of like nature with ourselves and he prayed fervently that it might not rain, and for three years and six months it did not rain on the earth. Then he prayed again and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth its fruit.”

    This brings to mind other powerful intercessors, such as Abraham and Moses, whose pleas were so strong that they convinced God not to destroy entire cities or people. If then, the Blessed Virgin Mary were indeed sinless, it would follow (right from Scripture) that her prayers would have the greatest power, and not only because of her sinlessness but because of her status as Mother of God. So we ask for her prayers and also ask other saints, because they have more power than we do, having been made perfectly righteous (according to James 5:16–18).

    Most Protestants are quite comfortable asking for prayers from other Christians on earth; why do they not ask those saved saints who have departed from the earth and are close to God in heaven? After all, they may have passed from this world, but they’re certainly alive––more than we are! Jesus alludes to this fact when He speaks of “the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob,” stating that “He is not God of the dead, but of the living.” (Mt.22:32) And those in heaven no longer have any sin (Rev.21:27; 22:14).

    If it is objected that the dead saints cannot hear us, we reply that God is fully able to give them that power––with plenty of supporting biblical evidence: 1) the “cloud of witnesses” that Hebrews 12:1 describes; 2) in Revelation 6:9–10, prayers are given for us in heaven from “saints”; 3) elsewhere in Revelation an angel possesses “prayers of the saints” and in turns presents them to God (8:3–4; cf.5:8; Tob.12:12,15); 4) Jeremiah is described as one who “prayers much for the people” after his death in 2 Maccabees 15:13–14. (cf. Jer.15:1) The saints in heaven are clearly aware of earthly happenings. If they have such awareness, it isn’t that much of a leap to deduce that they can hear our requests for prayer, especially since the Bible itself shows that they are indeed praying.

    We must be careful to avoid silly cultural stereotypes of what heaven is supposedly like. Sometimes we picture clouds, wings, and harps rather than the intensely spiritual place (or state) that it is, which souls longing and burning in their desire for human beings to be saved. The saints who have died devote themselves to prayer for us, because they are perfected in love. They no longer play all the games that we play in order to ignore the spiritual dimension of reality.

    A Protestant Might Further Object :

    It is not clear how these Catholic practices are any different from the séances, magic, witchcraft, and necromancy forbidden by the Bible. When you come down to it, Catholics are still messing around with dead spirits.

    The One-Minute Apologist Says :

    Catholics fully agree that these things are prohibited, but deny that the Communion of Saints is a practice included at all in those condemnations.

    The difference is in the source of the supernatural power and the intention. When a Christian on earth asks a saint to pray for him (directly supported by the biblical indications above), God is the one whose power makes the relationship between departed and living members of the Body of Christ possible. The medium in a séance, on the other hand, is trying to use her own occultic powers to “conjure up” the dead––opening up the very real possibility of demonic counterfeit. Catholics aren’t “conjuring” anyone; we’re simply asking great departed saints to pray for us. If they are aware of the earth, then God can also make it possible for them to “hear’ and heed our prayer requests. If this weren’t the case, then saints and angels in heaven wouldn’t be portrayed as they are in Scripture: intensely active and still involved in earthly affairs.

    ***

    “The consoling thing is that while Christendom is divided about the rationality and even the lawfulness, of praying to the saints, we are all agreed about praying with them…You may say that the distinction…is not, after all, very great. All the better if so. I sometimes have a bright dream of reunion engulfing us unawares, like a great wave from behind our backs.” (C. S. Lewis)

  • InterestedOne
    InterestedOne

    Darth Eowyn - I think this will be an interesting discussion, and I look forward to hearing how it plays out. From what I've learned so far, JW's claim to be what the Catholics claim to be. The JW's think the Catholics are a false version of the real church. They think the real church existed all along but was kept underground by the domineering false Catholic church. It was only in the late 1800's with C.T. Russell that God started to bring out the real church to greater public awareness. Their recent video "Out of Darkness" conveys this general impression.

    I agree with James Woods that the JW's are using mind control. They will use the same kinds of semantics in their explanations that you used in your "veneration" vs. "worship" explanation. I'm not saying you're wrong, but I am saying they will get very slippery with their language and definitions of words. I like the idea of an open examination of the history of Christianity and how it fits into history overall. I've noticed the JW's are very guarded about any historical commentary other than what is approved by the WT. Their "Proclaimers" book is terribly revisionist. I don't have too much experience with Catholic commentary on history, but I have to admit I have noticed some Catholic material that looks kind of revisionist or propagandistic like the JW material.

    I recommend you get ahold of their internal books. Notice the "Bible Teach" book refers to "Reasoning From the Scriptures" and "Insight on the Scriptures." These are the main "research" tools they use to find canned responses to your doctrinal questions. They also have the WT Library CD (which for some reason they don't give out) which has these books plus many others as well as all the WT & Awake mags going back to around the '60s. However, the CD does not have two very important books. These are "Organized to Do Jehovah's Will" and "Benefit From Theocratic Ministry School Education." If you ask for these, they will probably refuse. They might say you're not "ready." If you get a chance to read these restricted books, you will better understand what they are trying to accomplish by doing this "Bible" study with you. Hint: they are not interested in dialogue.

  • james_woods
    james_woods

    Folks, may I just suggest that Darth Eowyn came here to discuss the JW message she is getting from her visitors - not to promote Catholicism.

    Therefore, this thread is not the place to spout anti-Catholicism. It is off topic and in bad taste.

  • InterestedOne
    InterestedOne

    Oh yeah, they restrict the WT "study edition" as well. That is an internal version of the WT mag, not the same as the colorful, softer version they hand out to the public. If you ask for the "study edition," they might hesitate to give it to you.

  • InterestedOne
    InterestedOne
    Therefore, this thread is not the place to spout anti-Catholicism. It is off topic and in bad taste.

    Sorry if I came across that way. Not my intention at all. My post was to point out that what she is hoping could be an educational dialogue with the JW's could easily degenerate into two different sets of propaganda & selective readings of history, along with them questioning her motives, etc. & it could get wearisome. I think there's also the danger in that scenario of a person getting worn down & possibly sucked in.

    You're right. The thread is informational, and my post was drifting off topic. Sorry.

  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345

    Dear InterestedOne, I suppose you will be interested in a Catholic Bible Commentary:

    Haydock's Catholic Bible Commentary, 1859 edition.

  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345

    Butterflyleia85 cited John 18:36 from the NWT as "My kingdom is no part of this world...". But this is just a mistranslation to justify their antipathy to the non-JW world. Jesus only said that here, that his kingdom is not of the world, so that is transcendent, and did not say anything about the JW-like "not part of the world". You can check the greek it only say: ek tou kosmou which means: of the world. The word "part" is not in the greek, that is only a Watctower insertion.

  • stapler99
    stapler99

    Darth Eowyn

    But getting back to the Kingdom...I am trying to understand if they believe that there is some "event" or grace from God (or whatever you want to refer to it as) which will compel and/or change mankind's nature into behaving for eternity on paradise Earth? Ok, all the bad people/non-JWs are destroyed by God at Armageddon, leaving the faithful masses to rebuild the Earth. Will man be of a different, non-sinful nature then? What is going to make that happen? I am hung up on this issue and I would like to know where to go in the discussion next week. :)

    The JW version of history is as follows:

    Adam and Eve are created and have the option of rebelling (because they have free will), and they do rebel.

    From the expulsion from the Garden of Eden up to the death of Christ - All humans have inherited Adamic sin, and most of them will be resurrected during the Milllenium.

    After the death of Christ, some people will be anointed, and be part of the 144,000. Most others will be resurrected on earth.

    Armageddon - rebellious masses of humanity slaughtered

    After Armageddon comes the Millennium, when those who died will be gradually resurrected (except the anointed).

    At the end of the Millennium, Satan is released from the abyss. This event doesn't actually seem to be talked about that much in JW literature (outside of the Revelation Climax book). This is the final test. Most of humanity (including survivors of Armageddon and the resurrected) will rebel and be destroyed. Those who survive will then live in Paradise for eternity.

    Now there are many questions one might ask about this. Many have criticised Christianity in general by arguing that God must have foreknown that Adam and Eve would sin and could have created them not to sin. We could ask how Christ's sacrifice is supposed to pay for man's sin - under what other circumstance would you ever justly punish someone for a sin when someone else committed it? And then there is your point which I have wondered about myself: what is the actual difference between perfect Adam and Eve, who had the choice to sin, and perfected humanity at the end of the Millennium, who having free will, have the choice to sin, but perpetually exercise the choice not sin? This is never satisfactorially answered. As others have said in this thread, Watchtower literature is vague on the specifics of the paradise and basically they say that we must trust in Jehovah.

  • Butterflyleia85
    Butterflyleia85

    Aqwsed12345

    I have this scripture 1 Tim. 2:5 “there is one God and one mediator between God and men, a man, Jesus” (he is the only one that was perfect and strong enough but humble and understanding enough to mediate between us and God) but

    2 Maccabees 15:13–14 don’t have Maccabees… is this part of the Books in the bible, interesting.

    1) the “cloud of witnesses” that Hebrews 12:1 describes

    I was taught that these were the ancient faithful ones of God (like you said Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as well as Moses and Job, etc.) that lived before Jesus and had a special resurrection but not a heavenly one but one here on earth to guide us and share their experiences.

    So put two and two together, I never heard of: The saints being able to be the mediator (more able to motivate God into action (meeker) then mere humans) in a sense... if that's what you are saying.

    Just fyi these are things I want to know about:

    Butterflyleia85 cited John 18:36 from the NWT as "My kingdom is no part of this world...". But this is just a mistranslation to justify their antipathy to the non-JW world. Jesus only said that here, that his kingdom is not of the world, so that is transcendent, and did not say anything about the JW-like "not part of the world". You can check the greek it only say: ek tou kosmou which means: of the world. The word "part" is not in the greek, that is only a Watctower insertion.

    I know I been mislead in different ways and when someone corrects me it’s the only way I learn. Thanks.

    Darth Eowyn says, “…understand if they believe that there is some "event" or grace from God (or whatever you want to refer to it as) which will compel and/or change mankind's nature into behaving for eternity on paradise Earth?”

    Armageddon is something that is considered a “great event” or a “grace from God”… relieving the ones tortured but destroying those wicked. It will be a magical (in my terms) experience the heavens will open up and God will heal us like Jesus did when he was on earth, resurrect us like Jesus did for the little girl. Jesus will have his army of angels and everyone involved renewing the earth and heavens back to it’s perfect state. (The heavens already is in action, suppositively it all happened back in 1914 when Jesus became King)

    The main purpose for the earth will be fulfilled in a peaceful state back the way it was when Adam and Eve lived on it. Genesis 1:25-28

    …and basically just be grateful and enjoy it. (Ps. 104:24; Rev. 4:11; Acts 17:24-27)

    And yes like stapler99 described we will be tested one last time while in the Millennium range (during paradise) described in Revelations (JW don’t describe this much because this is the deep things of God and there will be “other scrolls” describing more in detail when the time is fit for it, kinda like an addition to the bible for the paradise is how I pictured it).

  • Butterflyleia85
    Butterflyleia85

    I still personally believe in this resurrection because this is the only thing I learned... It might not be quite right but it's a hope I still have.

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