delema... thoughts of not deprograming son

by Aussie Oz 21 Replies latest jw friends

  • GrandmaJones

    I did just go back and look at your older posts about your son, and it appears he just is turned seventeen right? Perhaps you should just let the whole thing blow over. He can't take any action yet anyway, right?

  • Mad Sweeney
    Mad Sweeney

    17 is too young to both get baptized AND have a serious marriage-level relationship.

    I think you ought to come right out and ask him: "Son, if you were allowed to have safe, protected sex with this girl with no threat of punishment from either God or man, would you be willing to delay the idea of marriage indefinitely?" Because even he probably doesn't realize that it is all about the hormones at this point, but the question could provoke some serious thought and introspection. Then maybe he will be able to admit to himself that it is about sex and get him to realize that it is ONLY the Borg rules that prevents him from having what he really wants.

    I wouldn't let a child of mine become a JW if it was in my power to prevent it.

  • Giordano

    Make sure he knows you have his back. That you can and will protect him from dangerous teachings. For instance, If he has to go to the hospital for serious surgery or gets in a serious accident your the one who's going to make sure he gets life saving treatment. Your the one that wants him to get an education or learn a trade that will allow them a decent life. He hasn't thought out a lot of this stuff yet and you can't preach it at him.

    But you can ask him what would he want for the girl he loves. What would he do if faced with those issues.

    Sometime it's seeing a situation or consequence that allows one to see the truth for the first time.

  • Black Sheep
    Black Sheep

    If he is determined to go ahead and make an ass of himself without bothering to answer the hard questions, that's his choice and there is bugger all you can do about it except to apologise for bringing him up in a cult and making it known that if he ever figures it out, he doesn't need to apologise to you before he asks for your help.


  • jamiebowers
    "Son, if you were allowed to have safe, protected sex with this girl with no threat of punishment from either God or man, would you be willing to delay the idea of marriage indefinitely?" Because even he probably doesn't realize that it is all about the hormones at this point, but the question could provoke some serious thought and introspection. Then maybe he will be able to admit to himself that it is about sex and get him to realize that it is ONLY the Borg rules that prevents him from having what he really wants.


  • OnTheWayOut

    Personally, I think that everyone deserves to know the truth about "the truth." You have a wonderful opportunity to help him break the cycle of JW's passing on JWism to their children by helping him to never ever get baptized. You are not the one to decide how he takes the information you provide to him.

    IMHO, do your very best to help him learn what you have learned and offer to help him slowly adjust his life to minimize the backlash from family. As for the girl, he's bound to lose her. But he's bound to lose her no matter what, so don't focus on that. He may think he can "save" her once he learns the real truth.

  • EmptyInside

    Just keep in mind,it's just as easy for a 17 year old to fall out of love as it is for them to fall in love. This relationship may not even last until they are old enough to get married.

    So, as his father if you want to share with him some of the things you have learned about the Witnesses,that is your right. In the end, it's up to your son to make his own informed decision on the matter.

  • yknot

    Okay ...

    A bit of reality maybe... a bit of man to man talk...

    Get out your bills...(house, utilities, taxes, insurances, retirement fund options, living expenditures like groceries, clothing, gasoline etc)

    Commend him for having 'good intentions' toward the little lady but if he is considering marriage (at any age) he needs to have the ability to 'provide'. The more a man can provide with extra pocket money left over the less financial struggles he incurs (and of course less arguing over money).

    JWgirls keep up the grand illusion of a single income longer than worldly girls (but really whether fairytales or dreams of being a reg-pioneer/elders wife....the end is always the same...happily ever after- him providing, her playing house).

    Traveling the world is exciting, but how is he going to pay for it? What if she gets pregnant? Medical care? If he says 'special pioneer' open up your copy of the Branch Manual and show him the section on personal expense accounts and medical coverage so he know just how little of a stippen it really is......

    Tell him how the world has changed, how higher education comes into play in the bigger scheme of 'success'.

    Ask him about whether he has considered her opinion on sex matters. Drag out the WTCD, show him all the articles on marital sex.... then tell him how many disregard these rules as 'going beyond' -while others strictly adhere to the point of creating a lack luster sex life and which ultimately kills the relationship and leads to countless elder meetings and how elders really don't wanna know his business......(show new ks where it discusses unmarried oral sex but is silent on married... tell him it is because there is division within the WTS leadership, but all in all it always comes down to GB personality and 2/3 vote.....ask him how he feels about the GB making rules and decisions for him in this area of his marriage perhaps continue the 'what if the GB mandated' such restrictions on personal clothing or some item/activity he loves).

    Then bite the really big bullet and ask him how things would play out if one day he decides he doesn't believe in the appointment of 1919 or the 'truth'*** (see reference below) and isnt' willing to live as a 'conscious class'? This gives you the opportunity to show him from the CD what exactlty is our 'truth' as well as introducing 'conscious class'.

    *** w81 5/1 p. 17 par. 3 If God Has an Organization, What Is It? ***
    That of Jehovah’s Witnesses is really “gospel,” or “good news,” as of God’s heavenly kingdom that was established by the enthronement of his Son Jesus Christ at the end of the Gentile Times in 1914.

    Tell him in the USA alone the WTS has the lowest retention of born/raised out of every religion (63% openly proclaim 'no longer a JW', the remaining 37% are a mixed bunch that include blindfaithers to fully conscious class). This is mostlikely true of the rest of the world.

    As time continues to march onward and the WTS is now using 'tightening tactics' and 'jesus meant' explanations. Remind him a person selling volumes of the Studies I in 1886 believed they were living in the 'end days' to and gave up opportunities because of such, that those who were his age in 1941 were told to not pursue higher education because it was a waste of time in these end days and that Armageddon was 'months away'.... they are now 87 yrs old collecting social security and 'the end' probably isn't coming in their life time either and they probably gave up an education, many forsaking children (waiting to have them in the 'new system') and other life enhancing experiences all to preach the WTS's message of impending doom which has failed to happen in the 137 years since Russell began to publish....

    Conclude with saying you are not speaking about these things to stumble him or dishearten his perceptions but rather to make the point that as a man and future husband, potentially a father, as the PROVIDER, he must make 'informed' and 'educated' decisions weighing all sides of the issue.

    Just my 2-cents of course......

    Huggles and Happy New Year to You and the Family

  • ziddina

    Oh, that's a tough one...

    I agree with Satanus - it would be a good thing if he fell 'out' of love with the girl... But oh, how to arrange that... You absolutely CANNOT forbid the marriage - or cut her down, or put her down in any way...

    If you could get him to agree to a two-year engagement - you could use the biblical example of Jacob, who worked for seven years to marry Rachel, and was willing to work another seven years when he ended up with Leah instead - to persuade him of the wisdom of waiting a couple of years before marrying...

    I also agree with Jamie Bowers - you're looking at two separate issues here... The possibility that he'll marry this JW girl - and your efforts to "deprogramme" him.

    With that in mind, I liked Bohm's suggestion - request that he have an "alternative" study with you, to closely examine the Watchtower teachings - like the Bereans... [spelling??] Emphasize that REAL truth has nothing to fear from a close examination of the Bible, and use the Bereans, Bereans, Bereans as the fine spiritual examples that they are...

    I also agree with YKnot - especially her points about providing financially for his wife, who probably WON'T be gainfully employed, but will be "pioneering", instead...

    I really agree with her points about the Watchtower teachings - I would bring those out, if he agrees to having an "alternative" study with you...

    Personally, I would approach it this way...

    "Son, I would love to see you happily married. However, you're 17 years old. At this age, you can't even legally drink [at least, in the U.S.A. ...], drive a commercial truck, or be gainfully employed full-time... [Don't know what the laws are in Austrailia, but use whatever is applicable...]

    Because I'm concerned about you - because I care about you and your future, I want to see you obtain a college degree before you get married. A degree will help you immensely in the future; it would assist you with a greater degree of financial security, and enable you to earn enough to provide for your wife and any children that you might have...

    I believe that you're quite mature for your age, otherwise I wouldn't be having this conversation with you about these concerns. A mature person - a man - would choose the wise course, one that will lessen the problems that can arise in life.

    I would like to see you with a Bachelor's degree, at the very least. While you're obtaining your degree, you will naturally want to be saving a "nest egg" - something to use as a down payment on that first home; a good car; that nice honeymoon that the two of you are dreaming of...

    I will help you as much as I can; but the REAL test of manhood is the ability to achieve one's goals without having to lean too much on other people. You know that you can come to me with any concerns, and I'll do my very best to help you.

    You're growing up into a man, Son, and I'm proud of you. I will be even prouder of you, as you achieve these goals. ..."

    Hope this helps...


  • Listener

    Abosolutely brilliant Zids! Here in Australia he has a good opportunity to even get an apprenticeship in a Trade, that can be 2 to 4 years long and an excellant start to his adulthood. That 'manly' talk should egg him on.

    Why I like this idea so much is because it is much more subtle and won't cause any division. If you can't win him over on this issue then you're not going to be able to win him over on the deprogramming.

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